In my opinion, the addition of remarks made in a 1997 election campaign is completely anecdotic (and is therefore bias-by-content). It defies all definition of "encyclopedic" - that is even before considering the fact that it takes up a third of an article on a topic that could see so much more relevant statements added to it. Tremblay 22:44, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is evidence of the political position of a prominent member of the party and an elected member of the Canadian House of Commons. In describing the Nazi party, we most certainly refer to the speeches, claims, policies etc. of its members. Angelique the brainwashed moron

Yes, it might be evidence of a person's political position. So why is it not in an article devoted to this person's political stance instead of being in an article about a political party? Tremblay 23:25, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

As I've pointed out in response to Angelique both on her user page and mine, if Suzanne Tremblay's comment is expounded on in such length in Bloc Québécois, then by extension we have to add long passages on every controversial comment ever made by any Canadian politician whatsoever. Canadian Alliance would have to include "back of the shop", "Asian invasion", "No more Prime Ministers from Quebec", etc. Progressive Conservative Party of Canada would have to include an extensive analysis of the long-term political fallout of "Tequila Sheila", "Sambo", "I don't speak Chinese or German, either", "Riel will hang...", "let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark", and on and so forth. Tremblay's comment is no more or less relevant than any of those. So, Angelique, tell me: why are you so much more offended by anti-English sentiment in the BQ than by anti-French sentiment in the Alliance? Bearcat 06:15, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is a copy of what I posted to Bearcat.

It's sometimes a matter of opinion, however I think you would agree that any such issue would have encyclopedic merit based on its national media coverage which in the Suzanne Tremblay racist statement issue, was not only substantial, but sustained. Publicity wise, it ranks second only to Paizeau's racism for which he resigned. And, by all means include any racist (or extreme right wing economic policies (please)) into the Canadian Alliance article. The collective thinking, or intolerate views of party members, is extremely relevant in writing an encyclopedic article. After all, a political party is created because its beliefs are different, therefore Wikipedia's job is to inform readers about what specific things make them different. Note, in the Bloc Quebecois case, that the leader only "distanced" himself from Ms. Tremblay, he did not condem her or discipline her. And, it is racism throughout the separatist movement, that scares English Quebeckers --- and Wall Street. Angelique 13:08, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

And, Bearcat said: why are you so much more offended by anti-English sentiment in the BQ - "Sentiment" ! I am offended and disgusted by racism, and Ms. Tremblay's remarks were pure racism. Also, far too many articles in Wikipedia contain "some think that etc. etc." Giving exact, precise, substantiated examples of conduct, is far more encyclopedic than "some believe the party has racist etc.". Angelique 13:19, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

And by the way, the "Riel will hang" matter you raised, relates to a deliberate misquoting a Prime Minister to make his words appear to say something completely different than the real words. Too, in dealing with racism, it is essential to spell it out so that readers can judge for themselves, in particular those from countries beyond Canada. As to how Wikipedia has dealt with racism, check out Henry Ford. And this is one businessman, not the Official Opposition Party of the GOvernment of Canada. Or, for lengthy views, maybe Mother Teresa. Angelique 13:32, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Still today, no one actually knows the problem you have with MacDonald's quote. Just that you continuously remove it. I'm not going to get involved in your new "forum on alleged racism".. but I'll point out that Henry Ford and Mother Teresa are articles about people not political parties, corporations or religious institutions. It supports the point I'd stated earlier: the Suzanne Tremblay event (which, from what I can tell, was mostly publicized in the "usual suspects" media) is relevant in her own article, possibly in Jean Charest's article, but it's not encyclopedic in the Bloc Québécois article. Tremblay 15:56, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

First, go and see racism so you understand what you are talking about. Are you saying that Canadians are a race? If that is the case, the only racist person I know is you. Being a Canadian is something that every human can be by becoming a citizen of Canada. In order to feel Canadian, identify as Canadian though, a person needs to adopt the Canadian culture and values. One requirement for this is a knowledge of the English language in order to communicate with the other Canadians. This doesn't mean they should completely abandon their own language, but it means that they will not be using it in every aspect of their lives anymore. That's how a nation composed of individual from all over keeps its unity.

Did it ever occur to you that Quebecers were maybe hoping to build such a society for themselves and the next generations, using the language and culture that unites the majority of them? I think you should stop using words you do not understand and learn the meaning of the words culture, diversity and humanity. -- Mathieugp 14:00, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Quote from something called Wikipedia.org : Race - Race is a type of classification used to define groups of living things based on such elements as common descent, heredity, physical attributes, self-identification, and more rarely behavior and language.

Perhaps Mathieugp can explain which culture, diversity and humanity that his calling others at Wikipedia "hopeless, brainwashed morons," comes from? Angelique 14:45, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Certainly. The individuals that I called "brainwashed morons" where human beings self-identifying as Canadians, of the kind that believe all the anti-Quebec junk they read in the right-wing Ontarian press. The kind that denies that something like the people of Quebec event exists and that Quebecers have their own culture because they have their own social, political, cultural, economic, and national institutions, some which are older than the Canadian federal State itself. You could in fact self-identify as "Canadian" yourself and end up concluding the same by understanding politics and nationalism in the context of a prolonged domination by the imperialism of another nation.

Being a Canadian is certainly not belonging to a race. Being a Quebecer either. Being a "brainwashed moron", something that you have attributed to yourself on multiple occasions, is something you cannot think of as being inherent to a person's origin or nationality, unless you are a racist and intolerant being yourself. Ignorance and stupidity is in reality common to all humans whatever culture they belong to, whatever language they speak.

Please, learn the meaning of the words nation, nationality, culture, ethnicity, language, pluralism and humanism. You might also benifit from reading on moral absolutism, chauvinism and for the love of God start reading on philosophy, the truth, and ethics. -- Mathieugp 16:23, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Re Suzanne Tremblay Stating facts is NPOV. Changing something to make it sound totally harmless is the hallmark of Mathieugp/Tremblay. Angelique 23:48, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Angelique, I strongly suggest you peruse Wikipedia's guides to writing with a NPOV - it will cut down on your reverting-quota. In it you'll see that very debatable adjectives must be avoided (for example "major controversy" becomes "controversy"). Also, statements such as 'racist' and "really bad guy" must be avoided. Because if it is evident that a particular event was caracterized by quote-unquote pure racism, readers will be able to come to that conclusion without the slightest bit of difficulty. Furthermore, in your version it only states that some "racist statements" were made about Jean Charest; no details.

Here is the definition of anecdote for your benefit.

anecdote: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident.

I stand by my earlier statement. Biographical incidents belong to biographical articles, otherwise it's not encyclopedic. What do you think about this? Tremblay who is still (hopelessly?) trying to have a discussion instead of a string of reverts.

---

Perhaps now that DW's new incarnation is gone we'll be able to discuss parts of this item.

I still think the Suzanne Tremblay anecdote should be kept on her own page. Otherwise it paves the way to the addition of all sorts of similar "subjective" anecdotes (i.e. Bloquiste Oswaldo Nunez being called an ungrateful immigrant for being a sovereigntist by Liberal minister Doug Young). Also, the general idea behind the Suzanne Tremblay anecdote is explained in an encyclopedic manner under "internal division". Any objections to removing the anecdote? Tremblay 00:02, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It should be moved under the "Internal division" heading - it seems very out of place currently.

In addition to the longstanding tension between those who define their nationalism ethnically vs. those who reject this view, there seems to be a new division arising between those who think sovereignty should/can be acheived and those who have given up hope (...which should be explored in the article). For example it should be noted that a number of sitting Bloc MPs have left the party for the Liberals in the last while, and several look set to do the same. -- stewacide 12:10, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

In the 1997 election, a controversy erupted when, at a Quebec rally, Bloc MP Suzanne Tremblay implied that Progressive Conservative Party of Canada leader Jean Charest was not a real francophone Québécois because his legal first name is "John".

I don't think francophone Québécois conveys the correct meaning either, since someone of (for example) Hatian heritage whose first language is French and who lives in Quebec could correctly be called a francophone Québécois - but that's clearly not what Suzanne Tremblay meant (Charest in fact is clearly both a francophone and a resident of Quebec). What I'm trying to indicate is that she was refering to his not being of Québécois ethnicity (not simply of Quebec civil nationality). -- stewacide 06:48, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

However, things progressively changed starting from the winter of 2003, partly because of the Charest government rapidly became quite unpopular and of the support for independence in Quebec rising again. The tide took its sharp turn when, in February 2004, the sponsorship scandal (uncovered in considerable part by the Bloc) hit the liberal federal government.

Is this true? The only poll I've seen has independence and constitutional at the very bottom of Quebecker's concerns. -- stewacide 16:11, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

It is quite true and thank you for asking your question. I will present some facts to back it up. A biased campaign by the media is in course to show the opposite, but the facts are that the support for sovereignty has been rising from 39%-41% upward since the 2002 Déclaration de Gatineau, where PQ leader Bernard Landry laid out a new plan and determination for attainment of independence. Please refer to this article (http://www.vigile.net/ds-actu/docs4/4-1.html#lpdl2) ("Charest would be sent back to opposition"), if you can read French. It mentions the poll taken between the 18th and 29th of March where the support for national independence beats the support for the NO side before repartition (OUI: 46%; NO:45%). After repartition, the YES side is at 49% (since, according to statistics, the pollsters give more votes from the indecisive to the federalist side). I believe such numbers in history have been yet seen only around 1995 to 1997 and at the death of the Meech Lake Accord (when it rose as high up to the 70 percents). Also, minorities are more and more open to associate themselves with the Quebecois identity and even the sovereignist project. A poll made by "Generation Quebec" found out that 40% of young people from minority groups are sovereignist. With all this said, one must objectively conclude that this statement (in the article) is vital to the understanding of the new Bloc phenomenon and that sovereignty is seeing a third wave of high popularity. -- Liberlogos

You're right. I just dug up some polls and support for "sovereignty" has gone up ~5% (to high-40s), but is still very soft (it drops to high-20s for full seperation). This seems to be directly related to dislike of the Charest government, as is the rise in Bloc support, so I'm not sure if sepratism is a cause or just an indicator. -- stewacide

Contents

1 Need for clarification 2 =Earlier projects 3 Social democratic? 4 Yes thay are Social Democratic ! 5 Compromise 6 8 Feb 2005 edit/social democracy 7 The Bloc Québécois and Social Democracy 8 Quebec(k)ers 9 Is the Bloc National Socialist?

Need for clarification

=Earlier projects

Although I find it interesting for it contains numerous facts, I am not certain this belongs in the article on the Bloc Québécois. Maybe somewhere in Quebec nationalism? Or maybe in a new article on Quebec in federal politics? The facts are that the current Bloc is sovereignist and progressive, and has very little to do with the other Blocs.

In any case, here are some points that need to be fixed:

1. where an article calls for a party of Quebecers defending the Quebec nationality in Ottawa.

The Action nationale article does not say that. It says:

À la Chambre des communes, il faut des députés canadiens-français capables, à l’occasion, de maintenir l’esprit de la Confédération… basée sur l’existence de deux éléments ethniques, les Canadiens français et les Anglo-Canadiens…

Which means: In the House of Commons, there must be French Canadian MPs capable, sometimes, to maintain the spirit of the Confederation... based on the existence of two ethnic elements, the French Canadians and the Anglo-Canadians...

It would have been anachronic (or revolutionary) to speak of a Quebec nationality in 1926.

2. There are two L'Action française magazines : the French one, which turned fascist, and the Quebec one which was renamed l'Action nationale when the editor wished not be associated with the fascism of the French magazine. The name change occured in 1926 if I am correct.

-- Mathieugp 03:58, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The article wanders off topic in a few other places as well. the off-topic material should be moved to more appropriate articles.--Indefatigable 11:26, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The picture with the caption which claims to be a picture of Lucien Bouchard is actually a picture of Hitler.

Now their symbol is depicted as being a gay pride flag, and Gilles Duceppe has been replaced with Shania Twain. I'd change it myself, but I'm new at this.

Done. Kevintoronto 18:51, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Social democratic?

An edit war is brewing over whether or not the Bloc is social democratic. I started to read the 2000 platform, but got tired and quit. I may take another look at this if I have the time. Maybe someone else for whom reading French is less of an effort could review this. It is posted on the party's website. In the interim, let's stop the edit war and have a discussion here about whether "social democratic" is a correct descriptor for the Bloc. And by discussion, I mean examples from their platform, not just assertions of personal belief. Comments? Kevintoronto 14:27, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The BQ is not a social democratic party. They have social democrats in it but they also have conservatives. They are not a member of the Socialist International and do not declare themselves to be social democrats in their constitution or election literature. AndyL 21:14, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Their platform and goals are social democratic but AndyL is correct to say that there are some conservatives in the party. They are united by their desire for Quebec soverignty not by a common set of policies. I think it would be fair to call them social democratic as that is the position their platform espouses, however they are not explicitly as such. - Jord 22:11, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A similar edit was made to Green Party of Canada, changing progressive (linked to progressive, a disambig page) to social democratic. I reverted it to progressive (linking this time to progressivism). That might also fit here? Samaritan 23:45, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes thay are Social Democratic !

The Bloc is inlined with the PQ and the UFP it is fair to say the party is social democratic and did you know the leader Gilles Duceppe was a Union Orgenizer and trade unions back the Bloc - michaelm

And founding leader and secular icon Lucien Bouchard was a Mulroney cabinet minister. Samaritan 13:03, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ture but Lucien Bouchard realise that he was in fact a social democrat and he did not like the accord. - michaelm

Compromise

While the party is not offically social democratic, many of its members and supporters are social democrats, and party policy often promotes the goals of social democracy. At the same time, many of its members and supporters were formerly Liberals or Progressive Conservatives, and the party attempts to attract sovereigntist voters from across the political spectrum.

Comments, please. Kevintoronto

This is spot-on, I think. Samaritan 19:35, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The CAW don't just support the NDP thay also support the Bloc ther is a sorce to prove it [1] (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/08/28/605590.html). - michaelm

This is a good reference -- labour movements in Quebec clearly support the Bloc. But does that mean that it is exclusively a social democratic party, or that it is a 'big tent' that includes social democrats as well as other Quebec nationalists? Kevintoronto 21:38, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The above compromise is very good. Kudos to Kevintoronto on it. The Bloc (largely because its ties to the PQ) are support by labour but neither are officially linked to labour like the NDP is. The Bloc is clearly to the left of the Liberals in their positions and those two parties or the only viable ones in federal Quebec politics, thus it is a very wise, pragmatic position for unions to support the BQ if they want to promote their agenda in parliament. At the end of the day, an analysis of the Bloc platform would lead to a political scientist labelling them social democratic. That said, many of its core supporters (its 30ish% floor of support) are seperatists who don't give a damn what it's other policies aren't and don't necessarily agree with them. How about this, based on Kevintorontos bit: The Bloc is a broad coalition of those who want Quebec to obtain sovereignty. Though a majority of its members, as reflected in its platform, are social democratic, it is not a homogeneous party which can be easily labelled with a specific ideology. In fact a minorty of the Bloc's caucus is socially conservative. - Jord 15:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if a majority of its members are social democrats or not though I think it's fair to describe Duceppe as one. I think it's fair to say that the BQ advocates a number of social democratic policies but I don't think the party itself should be described as social democratic since they do not describe themselves as such in their platform, constitution or "mission statement" where the NDP does use the phrase "democratic socialist" or "social democratic" (don't remember which one off hand), if only sparingly, in its mission statement and some of its central documents and is a member of the Socialist International. I know the PQ at one time described itself as social democratic (don't know if they still do, we should check that out) and I think they at least applied for membership in the Socialist International (can't remember if they were vetoed by the NDP or given some sort of associate status). Unless a party officially describes itself as social democratic or democratic socialist for us to call a party that would be POV. Anyway, I think the aforementioned compromise is sound. As far as the actual sidebar is concerned, though, the BQ should not be described as "social democratic" but simply nationalist/sovereigntist. The only thing I'd be comfortable saying beyond that is "centre-left" since that would seem to be a fair description of them at present and there seems to be consensus about that in the media and among other observers (ie I can think of no reference to the BQ as "right wing" or "centre-right", at least not since Duceppe became leader). AndyL 17:06, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I propose the following lines then, better combining the points in my line and that of Kevintoronto and noting AndyL's remarks:

The Bloc is a broad coalition of those who want Quebec to obtain sovereignty. Though its leader, and its platform, espouse social democratic principles, it is not a homogeneous party which can be easily labelled with a specific ideology. In fact, many of its members and supporters came from both the Liberal and Progressive Conservative parties, and the party attempts to attract sovereigntist voters from across the political spectrum.

I think that that should suit everone. Any objections? - Jord 16:44, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

8 Feb 2005 edit/social democracy

I've done a general clean-up of this article to:

• reduce some of the duplication,
• clear out the repeated wikilinks to the same articles, as per the convention that an article should be linked generally only at the first instance, and
• clear out some of the dead wikilinks, although I have left them in where they involve a person.

More importantly, I have erased the anonymous editor's changes from last night indicating that it is a social democratic party, and put in the compromise that Jord outlined above. There is no point in just re-inserting "social democratic" into the article without stating the case for doing so here. It will just be revertedIf, on the other hand, someone can provide on this Talk page a reference from the BQ's constitution or its campaign platform, for example, indicating that it is a social democratic party, then of course the article should be changed to reflect that. Kevintoronto 16:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fwiw, I agree. Samaritan 18:32, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Bloc Québécois and Social Democracy

I believe that the Bloc Québécois, like the Parti Québécois, can be counted as genuine social democratic parties, at the left of the political spectrum. I also disagree with the said "Jord compromise". Just so people have proof *once and for all* about the Bloc, I am transcribing (and very lightly adapting) a research text I wrote at Image talk:Canadapoliticalchart.PNG. If someone can still challenge my assertion, I'll love to hear it. ;)

• I will study in this intervention the Social Democracy in the Bloc Québécois. I believe that understanding the BQ as a simple "open bar" (in left and right matters) sovereigntist coalition is a false perception. This spirit might have been partly present in the very beginning, but, if so, it is much less now. An example might be the Ghislain Lebel affair(s) (his traditional stance on nationalism, seen when he endorsed a document made by right-wing sovereigntist Mathieu Bock-Côté and, later, his less open approach to First Nations claims expressed in his denunciation of the PQ deal with Côte-Nord aboriginals resulted in important internal criticism and final expulsion). Please allow me to point out apparent proofs and, afterwards support them with concrete quotes directly from the horse's mouth (or rather, the horse's official documents and platform).
• The Bloc has, in recent years, supported a plethora of typically left-wing causes. It has strongly supported marijuana decriminalization and gay marriage, as well as opposed the war in Iraq, the anti-missile defense shield and health care privatization (on the health care subject, let me salute the great Mr. Tommy Douglas). It criticized Paul Martin's Canadian Steamship Lines fiscal escapes and the surplus building in Ottawa that could go into social intervention (some centrist and center-right people would demand to lower the debt first or keep a large and stable safety surplus). It also heavily criticized the use of the employment insurance program money to achieve such a surplus. As the platform says, they "are seeking more open immigration policies" (a fact some ultra-federalist opponents somehow prefer to keep quiet). Despite the possible theoretical temptation of wholly denouncing the fire arms control program since its scandalous cost is a Liberal responsibility, it remains firmly committed to keeping it in place while finding ways to never again fall in such a fiscal disaster. Duceppe and his party were especially hard on the new Young Offenders Act. I have heard Duceppe make numerous speeches underlining that a sovereign Quebec would, as opposed to the way the federal government chose, treat its young offenders "in a progressive way, in conformity with the common values of the Québécoises et Québécois". In 2004, it received the support of Steven Guilbault, from Greenpeace, and the Bloc has the strongest relations with labour unions in Quebec. Proposing an anti-scab law (like the one put in place by René Lévesque in Quebec; the first in Quebec and Canada) has recently been an important cause of the Bloc. Duceppe has also stated his opposition to the ADQ right-wing ideas. The Bloc has quite often participated in (and organized) common fronts with the NDP. Even Jack Layton said in an SRC (French language CBC) interview, on the show "Maisonneuve en direct", that the opinions the Bloc and the NDP have defended in parliament are "very often the same" (I last heard the show a year ago so a word might not be the exact one, but this was the exact idea of his statement).
• These ideals and other equally progressive ideals are clearly displayed in the platforms and documents of the Bloc. For example, the official 2004 platform summary states that "the Bloc Québécois is committed" to the following (...and this is but a part of their progressive stances). Those are all direct, word for word quotes from the English 2004 platform summary (http://www.blocquebecois.org/fr/elections_2004/images/PDF/platform_24-05_en.pdf).
  • Proposing the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol so that it is fair for Quebec and based on the principle of polluter-pays.
  • Proposing an investment plan for the wind turbine energy industry that will lead to the creation of thousands of jobs that will be environmentally friendly.
  • Firmly opposing the expansion of the Saint-Laurent seaway.
  • Demanding a surtax on the profits of large oil companies.
  • Opposing the relocation of jobs and unfair business practices.
  • Drafting an anti-strike breaking bill and engaging in a proper follow up if it is not adopted.
  • Proposing a tax credit that is refundable for all families that have children under the age of 18.
  • Proposing that the federal government set aside 1 % of its expenses, or $2 billion per year, for the development of social housing.
  • Ensuring that eligible senior citizens receive guaranteed income supplements and that the government refunds the $3.2 billion in funds they should have received.
  • Fighting with determination alongside the aboriginal population in order to encourage their achievement of self-government.
  • Proposing maintaining peace-keeping missions as the primary role of Canadian military forces.
  • Proposing that the federal government introduce a plan to fight poverty in the world by increasing the levels of its international aid and respecting its dialogue concerning the debt reduction of the world’ s poorest nations.
  • Demanding that the government submit to Parliament, before ratification, all proposed agreements of the North American Free Trade Agreement.
  • Demanding that the federal government end the use of tax shelters and flags of convenience that allow businesses to avoid having to pay taxes and honouring their social and environmental responsibilities.
  • Supporting positive practices of globalization such as responsible investment and fair business practices.

I'll conclude the quotes with these excerpts from another document that can be found (in French, this time) here (http://www.blocquebecois.org/archivage/proposition_adoptee_finale.pdf). "It is more profitable, economically, to preserve the environment than to degrade it.", "The common good must absolutely come before individual interests.", and "We have known for long that the societies with the most inequalities are often the most violent societies. The Bloc Québécois will intervene in order to diminish the gap between the richest and the poorest. When, in a society, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, insecurity grows." The text sends us to a bottom-page reference stating that "[t]he Bloc Québécois remains, in this sense, a political party attached to Social Democracy".

• So, there you have it. I think practically none of these stances would feel out of place in the NDP or other authentic social democratic parties. The Bloc Québécois is genuinely social democratic.

Main references:

• Official summary of the Bloc's 2004 campaign program in the English language (http://www.blocquebecois.org/fr/elections_2004/images/PDF/platform_24-05_en.pdf)
• Official proposition document (http://www.blocquebecois.org/archivage/proposition_adoptee_finale.pdf)

---

The above, posted by User:Liberlogos, is:

(a) excellent research, and

(b) the sort of evidence that I have been looking for before we accept calling the Bloc "social democratic". Heretofore, we have not had this quantity or qaulity of research and analysis.

I do have one question, though: I have been looking here (http://www.blocquebecois.org/archivage/proposition_adoptee_finale.pdf) for the statement you quoted, i.e., "[t]he Bloc Québécois remains, in this sense, a political party attached to Social Democracy", and have been unable to find it. Could you give us a page number? Thanks again for your great work. Ground Zero 18:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC) (formerly User:Kevintoronto)

Never mind. I found it at the bottom of Page 23. I would add to the above, also, a line from page 21 of the same document, "Le développement durable implique un rôle prépondérant de l’État.", which I would translate as "Sustainable development implies a significant role for the State." Sounds pretty social democratic to me. I tink we have a fist-full of smoking guns, here.

I wonder, though, to what extent this solidly soc-dem stance is a product of recent times and the leadership of M. Duceppe. When Lucien Bouchard was leader, was the party more of a "big tent" without economic ideology? It is certainly fair to say, based on its 2003 policy statement, that it is a social democratic party. Should we also say that when it was founded that it was not? Again, we'd need more evidence than I can provide to say that. Ground Zero 19:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Ground Zero, you're too good to me. :-P Like Ground Zero says, I think we should hold any elaborate speculation about the Bloc's initial economic beliefs or "umbrella" nature before getting more solid evidence. Furthermore, in light of the arguments above, the whole "can't be easily labelled with a specific ideology" straying, in the article intro, should be cut I believe. I can try asking people I know involved in politics if getting a hand on older Bloc platforms is possible. That study should also be quite interesting; thanks for bringing this up, Ground Zero. Since you mention Mr. Bouchard, I will quickly state that I don't think his presence alone at the leadership would legitimize any more the "Umbrella" or "Big Tent Theory". One can read about Mr. Bouchard's progressive values in Jean-François Lisée's article "Our debt to Lucien Bouchard" (http://www.vigile.net/01-1/demission-lisee-star.html) (in English). So, I'll try to get more info on the first days of the BQ. I might also try to do a similar research job on the Parti Québécois (which could be beneficial), once its National Congress of June is over and the new platform is adopted. Cheers. --Liberlogos 05:37, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Quebec(k)ers

User:24.205.72.87 "switched" the way "Quebec(k)ers" is written, in this article. This was surely done with good intentions but, while both are generally acceptable, the standard spelling on Wikipedia is "Quebecers", not "Quebeckers", right? And, if so, does anyone object to restoring the former spelling? --Liberlogos 02:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I wish the convention had been established as "Quebecker", but it's too late now: "Quebecer" is strongly entrenched as the Wiki convention. Go ahead and revert it. Indefatigable 12:39, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

"Quebecer" is the standard used in Canadian media. I haven't see "Quebecker" since Lulu Bouchard was a federalist. Ground Zero 20:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The correct term is Quebecois, why not use that?

Is the Bloc National Socialist?

The Bloc Quebecois is Socialist and Nationalist and it's only Socialist when it comes to its own people, which is the basis of National Socialism. The party is also fairly anti-English, what am I saying fairly for? They are anti-English.

Anonymous person, a political theorist you are not. AndyL 06:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Classy answer, AndyL. I agree with you. This is too pathetic to be taken seriously. --Liberlogos 07:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)