Talk:Automobile/Archive 1
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Should we really separate current and historic brands? I suggest that we move them together into the same list. -- Bjorn Elenfors
Having put them there, I have no real reason not to integrate them with the bigger list. I simply thought viewers might arrive with a nostalgic or present-day point of view. Whatever. An alternative might be simply to flag the historic brands with an asterisk. Possibly an html table with country of origin included would be nice. -- Coasting
The full list already contains historic brands, such as DKW. Since you ? I'll integrate them now. Another question is whether we should separate the corporations from the brand names? Like VAG owns Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda and Porsche? -- Bjorn Elenfors
A possible layout would be:
- Big Corporation
- Major Brand Name
- Sub-brand (better term is required here)
- Major Brand Name
An example:
- VAG
- Volkswagen
- Audi
- Whatever
One interesting gap in the list is Chinese cars. I know they produce automobiles, but they are probably totally unknown outside China. -- Coasting
The head of states ride in "Red Flag brand" automobiles in China. The brand is a literal translation, I don't know its brand name known outside China. There are many other brands.
(Hard to believe no one's written about Chevrolet yet.)
Mav, you added "The first known use of the word "automobile", was used in an editorial in the New York Times on January 3, 1899." How certain are you about this? Most etymologies seem to indicate it's a French word from slightly before 1899: Webster (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=automobile), Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=automobile) and Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.geocities.com/etymonline/a7etym.htm). -Scipius 21:52 Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary cites 1895 Pall Mall Gaz. 15 Oct. for the meaning of the word that we are interested in, and 1883 H. GREER Dict. Electricity for a slightly more general meaning. -- Miguel
- It's the typical French way for creating neologisms initially this is an adjective that means self-moving : "un vehicule automobile" (self-moving vehicle). Despite the fact that Daimler & Benz where probably the first to sold automobiles the Frenchs where by far the major producers at the end of the 19th century.
- Ericd
- Indeed, which is why I'm suspicious about the origin of the word being American. Perhaps that was the first time it was attested in the US? -Scipius 17:34 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)
- Or in English language, but British papers may well have used the word earlier. By the way, the Belgian Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir also played a major role in the invention.
- Ericd
- Here is an interresting link :
- Ericd
I've mentioned that the word "car" is more usual in Great Britain and Ireland, but it would be good if we could say how it is in the rest of the world (Australia, NZ, etc). I don't have a clue, I'm afraid. --Camembert
- Those two I can say. "Car" is normal NZ and Aussie - I've been telling people I recently bought a car. Automobile is only ever encountered in American movies (it's undestood but not spoken). Irrelevant aside: my car is an "auto" - referring to the Automatic Transmission, hence: "I've got a new car." "Is it an auto?" "Yep, I'm too lazy to change gear." Rest of the english speaking world? Don't know, but I'd guess Car is more common.Tenbaset 00:53 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
"...they are more usually called cars (from the word carriage)..." Actually, without knowing for sure, it seems possible that "car" came directly from the French "char" or possibly even that "carriage" comes from "car" - or both. PML.
I've changed the opening paragraph slightly. While it mentioned cars it made it sound that the main word was automobile and car was just a quaint UK & Ireland word. I've changed it to state up front that automobile is American English and car British English and neither is suggested as being the correct word. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:31 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
Why not change it to the singular: motor vehicle? Olga Bityerkokoff
Because that term is not commonly used. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:36 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC) PS: Is that nickname the best you could come up with, Adam?
I live in the United States. Nobody here calls them automobiles in conversation. It's always car. I think we should move this to Car and make automobile a redirection. I just had an interesting read (http://www.metrum.org/measures/appendix.htm) on the origins of the English word car (Latin carrus from a Celtic word, itself from ancient Semitic languages, in turn from Sumerian). 66.27.202.81 00:50 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
If even in the US it is called 'car' I think automobile should definitely redirect to car. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:54 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
I vote for motor vehicle. It would be universally recognized, hence no confusion for anybody. User:Olga Bityerkokoff
"Motor vehicle" is no good - that could mean a motorcycle, or a van, or a jet-ski or anything. I agree with STÓD/ÉÍRE - if "car" is used in the US, the page can be moved there. --Camembert
You are still banned. Your vote doesn't count, 'Olga' whether you are the next Adam creation or the latest in DW's siblings. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:59 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
- Have to agree -- automobile is slightly more "formal" and "encyclopedic" in American, but "car" is more common in speech. A redirect to car would work well. Goatasaur suggested the same thing on my Talk page.
- Re: motor vehicle -- that applies to lots of vehicles that aren't cars or automobiles. Trucks, boats, lunar rovers, etc..... but we could have a Motor vehicle or List of motor vehicles with links to each.
- I'm done for the night, so I'll catch up with the consensus later. Catherine 01:02 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
The word "car" was used long before there were any automobiles. Cars were the carriages used in warfare. -- Zoe
I agree we should move. I may be wrong about this, but I thought that motorcar/motor car is an older terminology, with the shorter car replacing it. I think using it as motor car might be the better of the two options as it would allow searches using car on its own to be directly linked to. (That's if our search engine ever works properly again. An article I renamed six weeks ago still can't be found by a search except under the old name on google! Frustrating or what!!!) ÉÍREman 22:15 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
What's wrong with "automobile"? This is the correct name for this subject and "car" is simply too ambiguous. If this is an American vs. British thing then since this article was first created at automobile then our "no preference" policy on these maters states that automobile is where the article should stay. Otherwise I'm going to move sport to sports. Wouldn't that be fun? --mav
Mav, you missed the debate last week over this. The vast majority of people in the world use the word car and never ever use the word automobile. In fact many have never even heard the word. It isn't a simple case of British english vs American english, not least because car is also used in the US while automobile is not used anywhere else. There is a clear consensus that it makes more sense to put the page on a word used worldwide including the US to leaving it under a word that is an almost exclusively US form. Leaving it here on the basis of it being the first name used here in this instance is pointless because it isn't a question of a slight variation in spelling but two fundamentally different words; one used worldwide including the US, one exclusive to the US. The only question being debated is what to move it to, not whether to move it. ÉÍREman 01:37 Apr 22, 2003 (UTC)
If this is to be renamed, then it should only be to a better recognised and more common term; in other words, if we're not going to rename it to car then I don't see the point. Any other name is worse than automobile.
Is car all that ambiguous? The only other use of the word that comes to mind is the railroading one, and that's an easy disambiguation; a See Also that points to railroad car or something would take care of that. Or are there other meanings that I'm overlooking? Morven 17:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The page lists truck/lorry, (mini)van, and SUV as examples, so this should definitely not be renamed to car. Nobody calls their van or truck a "car", do they? -- Miguel
- If car isn't a workable renaming, I'd suggest leaving it as it is. motor car is just an expansion of car and all the objections to the latter also affect the former. Motor Vehicle is too broad (I don't see discussion of motorcycles etc. on here) and is less obvious than automobile. -- Morven 17:48, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I don't follow your reasoning with "motor car is just an expansion of car". Car is ambiguous, "motor car" isn't. The word "automobile" is virtually unheard of outside of the United States. What is the objection? Mintguy 17:54, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Why do I keep seeing all these ads for cheap motor car insurance then? What about the "Veteran Motor Car Club of America"? Do you know the beatles son "Penny Lane" which goes .. On the corner is a banker with a motor car." to say nobody uses the "motor car" is Bull. Mintguy 18:05, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Not saying it's NEVER used, but it's definitely a rarer used term even than automobile. -- Morven 18:07, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definition of automobile, and it does not identify it as American English.
- B. n. A self-propelled vehicle; a motor vehicle.
- motor car is defined as
- A wheeled vehicle or `horseless carriage', propelled by a motor engine and used esp. as a private conveyance on the road; an automobile.
- For what that's worth... -- Miguel
- The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definition of automobile, and it does not identify it as American English.
- Interesting to know. Anyway, I can see everyone's point about automobile being a confined-to-the-USA term, and car being international; since it would be most likely that car will remain a disambiguation page anyway, maybe motor car is the best place after all, as Mintguy suggests. Hmm. -- Morven 22:11, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- No you said "almost by none" which about as close to NEVER asyou can get. So you reckon that it's common to say "I'll just get the automobile out the of garage dear" to your wife? Or you often see adverts for cheap Automobile insurance? The words "motor car" are not an expansion of "car", quite the reverse. "Car" is a contraction of "motorcar" or "motor car". And car is much much more common than automobile. Mintguy 18:19, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Ah, I suspect we're arguing at cross purposes anyway. I'd actually prefer car to automobile. But I'd also prefer car to motor car; however, my objection is NOT strong, I'm just argumentative. And yes, car is a contraction of motor car, but it's a contraction that's almost swallowed its larger forebear. And yes, I see ads for cheap Automobile insurance. Really, both terms are sliding towards the archaic. Automobile even in the United States is only used in a formal sense, and not in casual conversation -- it's headed in the same direction as omnibus. Its sole advantage over car is that its usage encompasses not-quite-car four-wheeled transportation such as minivans, pickup trucks etc. which the list on this page includes, as Miguel points out. -- Morven 18:32, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)