Talk:Alicante

Name of the city

The city of Alacant/Alicante has two official names. Alacant is the original Catalan one. The Spanish name Alicante was given by Franco. During this time Catalan language was interdicted. All villages got Spanish names and even family names were re-named. After death of the dictator the city became Alacant again but the Spanish name stayed official as a second hand name. Habitants of Alacant prefer the Catalan name because their mother tongue is Catalan. Because of this reasons, we re-named the German article in Alacant. You should re-name the English article, too. Best wishes Hanno Meissner

In en:wiki, with few exceptions, we use the name with which English speakers are most familiar, e.g. Florence, not Firenze, although we mention other names in the beginning of the article. The name by which this town is known in English is Alicante. - Montréalais 21:06, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but in this case Alicante is not the English name for Alacant like Florence for Firence (in German we call it Florenz). Alicante is a name that was given by a dictator to supress Catalan inhabitants. Before the World War 2, only a small number of people went to Spain for their holidays so only a few people knew Alacant. After war more people visited Spain and during this time the official name was Alicante. Because of this, people in England got to know the city as Alicante. In the German Wikipedia we have a REDIRECT-connection from Alicante to Alacant. On this way elder people can find the article as Alicante and young people accustom to the name Alacant and get to know the city as Alacant. I think It's better. We shouldn't use names given by a dictator like Franco any more. We should forget them. Or dou you still know Litzmannstadt (it's the name Hitler gave to the Polish city of Lodz)? We should make the real names more popular. Best regards, Hanno Meissner

I agree with you that it would be preferable if English speakers would call it Alacant. However, we do not have the authority as encyclopedists to effect that change. There is some precedent for preferring a less well known title due to an older title's offensiveness, but as far as I can tell, that is only when the less well known title is still widely known. I'm prepared to debate the question, however. - Montréalais 05:58, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank you! I think it's an important point. Best wishes, Hanno Meissner

To Hanno Meisner

Habitants of Alacant prefer the Catalan name because their mother tongue is Catalan

Alicante has got 316,178 inhabitants, 10% are from other countries likes Argentina, Ecuador and Chili. Other 90% are from Spain. Spanish alicantinian name "Alicante" his city because they speak spanish in 85%-90%. Only 10% of the spanish population of Alicante speak catalan. You can see the dates in www.gva.es or in other social studes. And the name in spanish isn't from Franco, it exist at 15th century, is so old than the catalan name. From an alicantinian.

I'm agree whith this alicantinian. I'm an alacantinian Catalan-speaker, and the Catalan name of Alacant is older as its Spanish name, Alicante. But I'm not agree about the 10% of the population speaks catalan, it must be more exactly explained: the 10% speaks commonly catalan, but the catalan comprehension language is 85% of the population, and the 70% of the population knows speaks Catalan as billingual. By another subject, the name of Alacant cames from the arabic name of Medina Laqant, wich means "Lighting City" taked from the latin name Lukentum, and itselves taked from phoenician name of Akra Leuka. But the arabic population from Alacant (from 8th to 13th century) called it commonly as al-Laqant, wich means "the lighting", and when Catalan and Aragonese christians arrived in 13th century, changed the name to Alacant, Catalan name gave by the King James I "the Conqueror" of Aragon, in his own chronicles book Llibre dels Fets ("Book of facts"). But Alacant was ofered to the King Alfonso X "the learned" of Castille, who changed the name to Villa Laqant. Around 50 years after of it, Alacant returned to Aragonese dominion, under the Kingdom of Valencia. --Martorell 11:17, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is not the same thing a language is able to speak that to speak it habitually. That great people in Alicante can speak Valencian it does not want to say that it is his language like your and I we can write in English but it is not our language either.

Anyhow the numbers that you give are not correct. According to the study of the Town hall of Alicante that can turn in http://www.alicante-ayto.es/ompv/home.html It is not a 85 % the one that the Catalan understands, It is 81 %. And it is not 70 % those who can speak it, but only 28 %. In the city of Alicante, which is about that one speaks in this article, the majority of the people speaks Spanish, we like it or not, and there is in use more the name "Alicante" than "Alacant". It is not necessary to confuse what we would like with the reality.

You're in truth. I would apologize for the mistaken that I've done. I probably was confused with another survey. Altough the catalan language was forbiden in Alacant until year 1975, it's gainning in more and more speakers since 1986. From the same study you give below, let's to see the table of percentages:

The Valencian at Alacant	1986	1991	2001
Understands	56%	72%	81%
Talks	22%	25%	28%
Reads	12%	24%	33%
Writes	3%	8%	15%

It's clear there are an important recovering of catalan-speakers group in Alacant, and the latest data from the Instituto Nacional de Estadística of year 2003, gives the percentage of alacantinian catalan-speaker the 33% of alacantinian population.

And about the name, both name are widely known, and both are also official in the law here in Spain. It's meaning that in the maps edited in Spain by the Administation it's obligatory to use both names, in any language used. --Martorell 23:16, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Don't make me lough!!!

VALENCIAN has not been spoken in Alicante for more than 60 years even before Francos times Valencian had disapered as a family language from the homes of Alicante except in some outsirks suburbs. Nowaydays anyone speaks in social life valencian you can only hear it very ocasssionaly when the people from nearby villages go for shopping at the weekends in high street but these people don't life in the city.Family use is only betweeen families coming fron valencian speaking towns but never between true Alicantinosa and it's use can not be more that 5-10%. About the figures that you have just given are not an expresion of the reality. It is true that the people have a general knowledge of valencian but it is because is compulsory to stady it at school or to became a civil servant even though is not spoken in the city more than english. We also watch the valencian chanel canal 9 which is broadcast in valencian and hear the valencian language in nearby towns like MUTXAMEL,CAMPELLO,LA VILA JOIOSA OR CASTALLA thats the reason because 22 speak it and 56 understands it but it doesn't mean that we use it as a every day language we also understand english but it doest't imply that we use it with our family or friends to speak each other.

ABOUT THE NAME ALICANTE "INVENTED" FOR FRANCO WAS THE NAME USE FOR EVERYONE TO CALL THE CITY AROUND 1940 BECAUSE AT THAT TIME ALICANTE WAS ALREADY SPANISH SPEAKING.this name is very old and it come up in Novels like Rob Roy by Walter Scott written at the begining of the XIX century. Just check it before telling lies.

In the web page of Alicante council www.alicante.es you can find objective information about the decline of the valencian language in Alicante. Summing up

1.Around 1880 it had disapered in the center and west of the city and the middle class didn't speak it anymore

2. Around 1940 had already disapered in the whole city

3. 2004 Valencian language is disapering as a living languaguage from san Vicente ,San Joan, Mutxmel y Campello where is still spoken but be sure that not for a long time as a result of his phisical union with Alicante.

Nowdays the valencian dictatorship impose us to stady valencian which used to be spoken here one hundred years ago but we dont't like to look back to the past we just look to the future and the freedom to stady in our mother toungue: SPANISH

Hello Anonymous! Valencian isn't a seperate language but a Catalan dialect. All other statements made by Spanish speaking people are politicals motivated. Centralists (an Spanish nationalists) fear of a too large Catalan population (8 mio). So they divide it in Catalans and Valencians. I think you aren't right that the language of the future will be Spanish in Alacant/Alicante. The Catalan speaking regions get more and more economic power. Today, Spanish speaking regions are dependent of Catalan speaking regions. Because of this economic power the Catalan language will get more and more power in the whole country as well. If the government in Madrid wants to keep Spain united for the future they'll have to grant the Catalan language a more powerful status on the national level than today. Maybe, in about twenty years, Spain will be constituted like Swiss as a country with different equal languages. I cannot look to future but I could imagine such a development. I am from Germany and because of this I am a neutral observer of the political situation in Spain. I'm sure that these points are very emocional an hard to accept for a Spanish speaking person like you. But please realize reality. Spain is a multi-ethnic country and not a homogeneous nation state Franco liked it to be. Every attempt to change these circumstances will lead to the collapse of the Spanish state. You should better be proud of the cultural wealthiness of your country and not deny it. I like Spain with all its languages: Spanish, Catalan, Galician and Basque. Best wishes from Germany! Hanno Meissner, Wolfsburg

The template solution is not the right one, ask Google

There is no need for a template about Alacant/Alicante. This does not fit within the way wikipedia is designed. Alacant needs to be a redirect to Alicante. The article on Alicante is sufficient. Google test: Google returns 10,200,000 for Alicante [1] (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Alicante) and 730,000 for Alacant [2] (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Alacant&btnG=Search&meta=).--Edcolins 07:14, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

For a comparison, see also the Municipalities of the Brussels-Capital Region (the region is officially bilingual). Many have officially both a French and Dutch names: Ixelles, Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, Saint-Gilles, Molenbeek-Saint-Jean, and so on. --Edcolins 07:40, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

Joanot, please do not unilaterally revert my change, without first discussing. The template solution is not a good solution. --Edcolins 10:14, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Unilaterally? After to discuss it you've made the changes already. I've discussed you it in the discussion page of Template:Alacant/Alicante. --Martorell 14:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

You just highlighted the fact that your solution is not persuasive. Talk page management would become hell, etc. As said on the other talk page (sic):

"I haven't said Google test is the ultimate one, but it is certainly a rather fair one especially when it turns out that it reveals a 10,200,000 / 730,000 ratio. One article is needed, otherwise there are two pages, two (or three) talk pages, etc. Links within wikipedia would have to select one of the two articles. That would completely flaw your solution."

If there were a possible random selection among Alicante and Alacant on every wikipedia page, your solution might be viable, but there isn't. --Edcolins 07:18, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Google gives me a ratio of 11,400,000 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=es&q=Alicante&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda&lr=) / 1.500.000 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=es&q=alacant&btnG=Cerca&lr=), and Yahoo! (wich has indexed over 50% of the net) gives me 9,010,000 (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Alicante&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt) / 1,460,000 (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Alacant&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt). I don't know why it gives this difference. Anyway, I have understood finally the troubles about using this template, especially about the talk pages. Ok. I'm sorry, I only wanted to give a solution to cities with more than one official name wich wouldn't have any preferencial use. Because if there aren't any English name for a city, why to use the most used name? This question is specially focused in the case of cities where exists an own language (in adding of the language's State), then it would be more closed to common sense using its name in its own language. It's the case of Alicante, a Spanish name, but Alacant is its name in its own language. Thanks and, again, sorry about the template, and about my poor English. --Martorell 08:24, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I have two points of view disappointing your opinion.

First, technically, using templates would be te same as using redirections. Wouldn't it be???. If the problem is the talk pages, why not to use in Talk:Alicante and Talk:Alacant pages a redirection to Template talk:Alacant/Alicante??

Second, legally, in Spain there are two laws that states the official term of Alacant as "Alacant/Alicante", one of these laws, a valencian autonomous law, says that at Alacant there is a linguistic predominance of Valencian Catalan over the Castillian Spanish (see Law about using and teching of Valencian (http://www.gva.es/cidaj/cas/c-normas/4-1983.htm) in Spanish, at the Title V, and article 35). The other law, a Spanish state law, states that the official names of cities on autonomous lands where there are more than one official language, it must respect the autonomous laws about linguistic guidelines. And about it, the Alacant City Council has accorded the official name in its bilingual form, so according both laws, the official name is "Alacant/Alicante", first Alacant in its order because its legal linguistic predominance. In its case, if it's not proper about using separate both terms througt a template, why not about to rename the article as "Alacant/Alicante"?. In the body text both names would be used randomized.

I'm trying to find this solution about no preferential use of any of both term, because it would be really an NPOV --Martorell 09:14, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

PD: For more information about official names of valencian municipalities, we can read a list of municipalities in the Land of Valencia, where there are datas about this name in valencian or spanish, and in its official name. --Martorell 09:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Using one name instead of another in the English wikipedia does not abate the local legality of the latter. See Wikipedia:Naming convention:

"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

Cheers. --Edcolins 12:13, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)