Talk:Affirmative action
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AA is a Governmental Activity
I think there can be no doubt that Affirmative Action is a governmental policy. Am I right? And, if it is, it must have a purpose. That purpose could be retribution against particular racial and ethnic groups the government does not like or approve of. A different purpose would be to change the makeup of the society or societies it controls to a more "desirable" state. This last purpose requires some sort of measure to judge outcomes by, and those measurements are laid out. In other words, Affirmative Action is simply another form of social engineering intended to improve society. Distinguishing between this program and ones termed "Ethnic Cleansing" is not easy or simple. Both have a number of characteristics in common.
- Both are government programs.
- Both are attempts to change society to a more approved form (from the government's POV).
- Both identify desirable and undesirable groups by race and/or ethnicity.
- Both use government force to decrease the number of undesirable groups in desired positions.
- Both use government force to increase the number of desirable groups in desired positions.
- Both claim "High Moral Ground" in operating their programs.
- Neither is much interested in the opinions of lower SES people involved.
It is clear that people who like Affirmative Action dislike Ethnic Cleansing, but the reverse is probably not so. Part of the question at hand is what the basis for the difference of opinion is. Some would say race plays a very large role in these opinions. Others seem to claim that somehow giving a limited resource to a desirable group does not negatively effect those who are not wanted. This is perhaps the least defensible point about these arguments, and calls for a careful systematic evaluation of how that could possibly be true. A clear, precise explanation of how things such as jobs or positions in Universities or positions in government are *NOT* limited resources would seem to be in order here.
I think this is the sort of reasoning that should be presented in a fair "Criticisms" section. I personally find this line of reasoning to be far stronger than pointing out that getting preferences brings relative competency into question for beneficiaries. milesgl 21:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- We agree. State sponsored racism is... state sponsored racism, no matter how pretty a name you give it, or how much propaganda you shovel on top of it. [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 23:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Overhaul
I made a great many edits to the article. Unless someone ibjects, i will be removing the dispute headers. Cheers, [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 17:01, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Woefully incomplete
Having looked at Title VII and heard from numerous sources that private employers of less than 15 employees can engage in freedom of association, I have more recently heard informally from an attorney that it simply is not the case that anyone can realistically engage in freedom of association anymore. This is due to something called "section 1981" which prohibits discrimination in private contracts, as well as State laws that effectively remove the 15 employee floor from affirmative action powers at the State level.
This is crucial.
If there really is _no_ condition in which one is free to associate with those one chooses, except for those who happen to agree with the government's judgments about those with whom they should associate, then there are few issues of greater importance to the real rights of humans, and this should be spelled out accurately and adequately. User:Jabowery (sig added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 11:41, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC))
- Please find some references for this stuff, and add cited info to the article. Cheers, [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 11:41, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just looked this up (on LexisNexis). Jabowery is referring to Section 1981 of Title 42 of the United States Code, which provides for "equal rights under the law." It's the codification of Section 1 of the old Civil Rights Act of 1866, as subsequently rewritten by Congress in the Civil Rights Act of 1991 (in response to the Supreme Court's gradual weakening of the original Act). Among its many prohibitions, it prohibits racial discrimination in the making and enforcement of private contracts between private parties.
Section 1981 is the primary basis for lawsuits involving discrimination on the basis of race and national origin, but not sex, religion, or anything else. As made extremely clear by subsection (c), it reaches racial discrimination by both government and private parties: "The rights protected by this section are protected against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under color of State law."
In the case of Runyon v. McCrary, 427 U.S. 160 (1976), a class action by African-American students seeking admission to exclusive private schools, the U.S. Supreme Court held by a 7-2 majority that Section 1981 does apply to private contracts. It also upheld the law against several constitutional challenges, including the challenge that it impaired the defendants' First Amendment freedom of association. The defendants were free to continue teaching white supremacy, and white parents had a right to continue to send their children to such institutions, but the right of association had never been construed to protect invidious private discrimination.
The point of the case is that when the proprietors of the schools entered into the business of offering the service of teaching schoolchildren to the general public, Section 1981 blocked them from denying that service to otherwise qualified schoolchildren just because those children were not white. The First Amendment right of association, as a implicit right derived from the right of free speech, only protected the defendants' right to express, as a group, their belief in the plaintiffs' inferiority.
Subsequent cases by lower courts have clarified that Section 1981 is much, much broader than most other civil rights laws, and reaches private contracts of all kinds, since it does not have the private club or private association exceptions seen in other laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Frankly, as a member of a minority ethnic group, I personally see nothing wrong with such jurisprudence or the fact that Congress further strengthened Section 1981 in 1991. People are still free to associate to discuss and express their personal views, no matter how controversial or distasteful; Section 1981 only bars them from discriminating on the basis of race when engaging in commercial activities. In all legal systems, personal rights are always circumscribed by the public policy of the larger group at some point. For example, contracts involving murder for hire are unenforceable because they violate the strong public policy against murder, even though anarcho-capitalists might argue that such public policy interferes with their personal right of freedom of contract. Freedom of speech is not unlimited, either; publishers can and have been held liable for writing guidebooks for hit men. Similarly, Congress has simply made a rational determination that racial discrimination is against the public policy of the United States.
In the American democratic system, people who do not like that determination are free to lobby Congress to pass a constitutional amendment to create a separate explicit right of free association for any purpose (not just speech) (though I doubt such a movement would go anywhere).
--Coolcaesar 05:55, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
References?
Are their references for the following claims from the "results" section?
- "The minority students at Berkely, despite their lower SAT scores, do as well in class, statistically, as their higher-scoring white counterparts."
- "Not only were the grades of the second tier statistically indistinguishable from those of the first tier, there was actually no statistical difference between the second tier and the top 15% of applicants in the first tier."
--Nectarflowed 03:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Until references are furnished, the claims appear to me to be too questionable to be included in an encyclopedia article, and I have removed the following two paragraphs.
- Differing entrance qualifications often do not translate into differing performance once at university however. Students from poor inner-city high schools are unlikely to arrive at college as educated as preparatory school attendees, but are also more appreciative of the access to resources and knowledge a university affords. The minority students at Berkely, despite their lower SAT scores, do as well in class, statistically, as their higher-scoring white counterparts.
- Texas was also the result of a unique experiment when a court ruled that a state medical school had to approximately double the number of students in an incoming class to meet anti-discrimination provisions. Not only were the grades of the second tier statistically indistinguishable from those of the first tier, there was actually no statistical difference between the second tier and the top 15% of applicants in the first tier.
- --Nectarflowed (talk) 11:24, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NPOV
I added an NPOV tag. The bulk of this article seems to critique Affirmative action, rather than neutrally describe it. As a result, the article could use a major overhaul. At the least, criticisms may have more merit if fitted within the context of a less biased article. Perhaps the many critiques and subsequent disproportionately brief counterarguments throughout the article would be better placed within the sections with those headings. Regardless, any changes in a more neutral direction would be an improvement. While dispute is inevitable given the contentious nature of this topic, given that Wikipedia articles should conform to a neutral point of view, future editors should be more cognizant of these issues. See [[WP:NPOV]
"Flawed reasoning
Proponents of affirmative action often contend that racial diversity is intrinsically in the interest of an academic environment and as such a university is justified in taking means to ensure a racially diverse campus. This notion is mere assertion. Japan is perhaps the most racially homogenous nation on the planet and yet manages to have the highest per capita GDP. Relatively homogenous nations such as Germany, Korea and China are also uninhibited by their lack of diversity. The notion that racial diversity is necessary to enhance the quality of a campus atmosphere can not be substantiated by quantitative evidence. It's probably a nice idea, but it has no real basis and is surely poor justification to discriminate against qualified applicants on the basis of their race."
1) No references. 2) Not neutral 3) A nice idea is a message board post that has no place in an encylopedia.
BenFranklin June 11,2005
The cleanup tag should have stayed as well...
Hello:
I agree that this article needs to be cleaned up to NPOV, but it also should have retained the cleanup tag as well. This article is extremely incoherent and disorganized, and just rambles all over the place. Unfortunately, I don't have six hours or the energy to go through and rewrite this mess.
Also, spelling it "Affirmative Action," as several contributors to the article seem to be doing, is simply incorrect. Affirmative action is not the name of a specific program, but rather a description of a generic class or type of programs, and thus should not be capitalized.
Here's another example. Lawyers write "courts of chancery" when referring to them as an abstract class. For example: "Courts of chancery developed because of the failure of the courts of law to provide justice in certain types of cases." Another example: "The Lord Chancellor's informal procedures for handling such special appeals gradually evolved into the courts of chancery."
But they add capitalization when referring to a specific one, like this: "the Delaware Court of Chancery ruled today..."
For more information, see the article on capitalization. There are a lot of non-native English speakers using Wikipedia, though, so some misunderstanding is understandable.
--Coolcaesar 04:19, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is too USA-centric. It should be renamed Affirmative action in the USA, or something similar. Alternatively, is there a sociologist out there who can totally re-write this article to give it a global perspective? Arcturus 22:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The term "affirmative action" specefically refers to the US issue. Other countries other names.
racism redirect
The search query "reverse racism" should redirect to "reverse discrimination", NOT to "affirmative action". Affirmative action is charged with being a type of reverse racism, but they are not exclusively synonymous, and, being as there IS an article explicitly on the subject of reverse discrimination, the redirect ought to go there. - Che Nuevara 04:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)