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i've heard that guido von list founded a type of odinism (referred to as "wuotanism") that is different than the odinism practiced by many other odinists. Gringo300 01:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Wasn't Guido von List very Right-Wing?
guido von list has been described as racist and anti-semitic. the thing about the term "right-wing" is that it can mean COMPLETELY different things in different contexts. the same is probably true of the term "left wing".
from what i've read, his wuotanism is considered to be a type of gnosticism. Gringo300 01:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________________________
I've had to remove a certain link twice. The "Asatru Knotwork" site has virtually nothing to say about Asatru. Its primary reasons for existence appear to be a) as place to hang advertisements, and b) for the author to congratulate himself for using open source software. I get the impression that the author is very young and enthusiastic, and doesn't understand what kinds of content are appropriate here. His website is extremely inappropriate. If he wants it to be otherwise, he needs to put a few years into developing some real Asatru-related content. --Steven T Abell 18:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Ásatrú was revived in the 20th century."? The first(?) revival was in the late 19th century, then again in the 1920s and then in the 1960s. // Liftarn
I noticed that Odinism redirects to Asatru. Are there not any differences between the two, or are they just too minute to warrant separate articles? It may be difficult to describe the differences objectively in an article, but in my experience, people who use the label "Odinist" are usually much less concerned with the more ritualistic aspects of the religion. For them it usually seems to be more of a philosophical and cultural approach to the Northern Way. And if I remember correctly, that's how Else Christensen ran The Odinist and the Odinist Fellowship. RL Barrett 22:27 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
The comment was placed in the middle of the article -- it really belongs in the talk page:
- Did the Viking Age really begin with the Norse raid on the Lindisfarne Priory in England in 793 AD, or a few years earlier when Charlemagne executed thousands of Asatru noblemen in northern Germany and chopped down their sacred groves?
About this: These noblemen wouldn't have identified themselves as Asatru, which is a modern construct. They may have recognized the term Heathen. - Yngwin 12:41 May 15, 2003 (UTC)
Isn't there a great deal of White supremacism and Aryan brotherhood philosophy in the American Asatru movement? RickK 06:46, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- There are a number of people and organizations with both strong Ásatrú and white supremacist interests, yes. It's a different question whether this is a case of you getting chocolate in my peanut butter or me getting peanut butter in your chocolate. My own very limited understanding is that most heathens are contemptuous of the white supremacist stripe, are annoyed they get so much attention, and wish they would just go away. Salsa Shark 23:03, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I think more of this should be mentioned. Many Americans understand "Odinism" as almost a code-word for a sort of neo-Nazism based on pagan religious beliefs, similar to the "blonde beast" sort of "Aryan" mythos, and this seems to be how some white-supremacists in Scandinavia understand it (some of the "neo-Nazi" musical groups in Sweden and Norway draw primarily from Norse mythology rather than from Nazi imagery). Certainly this is not what "Odinist" necessarily means, but the issue should be discussed and clarified. But I don't know enough about it to do so. --Delirium 10:59, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
- Most Americans, if asked, would be unfamilar with the terms "Odinism" and "Asatru" alike, much less any distinction between them. (Although Asatru did come up in the media during the late 1990s regarding the controversy over Kennewick Man... the Asatru Folk Assembly's claim to KWM as an ancestor was even front page news in The Washington Post. EikwaR
- As an Ásatrú myself, I can say that it, being a religion, is not linked to any political movement whatsoever. Indeed there are a lot of right wing extremists who call themself Ásatrú or Odinist, but most of them don't have a clue what it's about. Freedom and brotherhood are among the highest virtues in Norse Heathen vision, where hatred is one of the most rejectable emotions. Real Heathens don't hate any other group of individuals, not based on race, or colour or faith. Some Heathens have negative feelings about Christians, since they are responsible for many innocent deaths during witch hunts, and for Charlemagne excecuting many Saxon heathens. Heathens against Hate (http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/hah.html) is a website which aims at destroying any negative rumours about Heathenry based on right wing extremists. There is a number of reasons why many white supremacists choose to call themself Heathen:
- Having a shared heritage with other germanic / white / aryan people increases the kinship within such a group.
- Hitler is said to have been an occultist.
the orginal nazism was heavily involved in occultism. Gringo300 02:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It is an easy way to gain members by seeking out devoted Heathens and talking them into nationalism..* Nationalism is being proud at ones nation or people, but can also be about a religion.
- The religion is very tightly linked to the race they feel so proud about to be.
- Many non extremist Heathens agree to the last point, believing that this religion, having evolved in this culture, is the best religion for the culture to have, since it is a mirroring of the culture. Heathenry is the best religion for Germanic / Norse people, since it is based on their culture and values, where, for example, Christianity isn't. Other way around, Heathenry isn't a good choice for Japanese, who have there own distinct culture, and should seek out their ancestral religion.
- I hope that this small talk has giving You an insight in the links between Ásatrú / Odinism and White Supremacism. Be it known that although I am a devoted heathen, I do not share white supremacist thoughts. To the last point, I can agree, although for me the right of freedom weights more for me. Anyone wanting to become Germanic heathen would be fine with me, although I would advise them to seek out their own roots first. Also know that I have no desire insulting someone here, so if anyone feels insulted, please accept my honest apologies. (BrahnTelpefin 23:40, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC))
Should we merge this with Norse mythology? Kwertii 05:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I don't believe so. Listed on there, maybe -- but not merged. There are enough people who follow this belief system to keep it seperate. I'm also not entirely sure it falls under the "mythology" realm, since it is an active belief system. I might not be completely on target about that, though. --Wolf530 15:28, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
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Nazis
Asatru is mentioned as "often linked with" Neo-Nazism on Nazi mysticism. These allegations should be mentioned here, and either be substantiated or debunked. dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
satanism is also often linked to neo-nazism. ironically, the two seedline branch of christian identity claims that jews are the descendants of satan. Gringo300 02:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dormancy
I have done some research about the dormancy of this faith. One of the sources is an excellent recently published book written by the Swedish folklore scholar Ebbe Schön (Asa-Tors hammare). It appears that the faith was only marginalized and that Swedish farmers continued to talk about Thor, Odin, Frey, Freya and Balder into the 20th century. I know from my own district that farmers in the 20th century had oral traditions about how to perform a blot ritual (see Trollkyrka). Would it then be correct to say that Christianity forced it into dormancy? Marginalized seems to be a better term.--Wiglaf 21:31, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
US/UK Spelling
This article contains a combination of US and UK spelling (for example, "honour" but "organization"). One or the other should be chosen and applied consistently. — Ливай | ☺ 06:17, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that not only is organization an accepted spelling in the United Kingdom, but (IIRC) it's actually the spelling that comes first in the Oxford English Dictionary, which prefers -ize to -ise. Binabik80 04:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
cleanup
nobody seems to be looking after this article, and it is deteriorating. maybe it should have a cleanup tag. It is a hodge-podge reflecting the use of the term in general. It seems to equate Asatru with Germanic paganism, while it should be about Neo-paganism exclusively, and make clear the separation between the different kinds. Afaik, the Icelandic Asatru do not want to be associated with other groups using the name, and many Neo-pagan groups shun the term Asatru, because of the esoteric mish-mash that went under the name in the USA. This article should focus on detailing these controversies, and plotting their history, and cleanly list the various groups, rather than rambling about ancient Germanic traditions. 'Asatru' is late 19th century coinage, and therefore we should focus on 19th-20th century developments here. dab (ᛏ) 13:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Complete Rewrite?
- How about this as a skeleton for further writing?
Ásatrú (Icelandic), sometimes rendered Asatru (American), Åsatru (New Norse) or Åsatro (Bokmål) appears first in anthropological and historical works by Scandinavian scholars such as Sophus Bugge, who translated the Sæmundar Edda from archaic norse to then-modern riksmål in 1867. By some modern historians considered an anachronism, the term was used to describe the ethnic practices, traditions and rituals of the germanic language groups as a uniform, monolithic belief system in opposition to christianity.
The idea of an Ásatrú, with Norwegian nationalists among the most vocal proponents, played a minor role in the ideological construction of the Scandinavian nation-states, as well as theromantic myth of the Viking-barbarian. A number of small occultist or nationalist groups in European communities around the world are known to have attempted to revive the religion, but these attempts most likely came to an abrupt end when the Nazi party in Germany began monopolizing the various sacred symbols and trappings of German rural culture. In Scandinavia, the idea fell from grace as a result of being adopted and exploited for propaganda purposes by the hated Quisling regime of Norway. One curious case can be found in Australia, where a small number of people identifying as Odinists were harshly persecuted on the suspicion of Nazi sympathies.
While the Ásatrú meme was carried by a small number of academics of all political stripes, and upper middle class of the right-wing nationalist establishment of the European mainland, it took a very different form on Iceland, which considered itself independent of and apart from the process that assimilated other norse communities into the medieval and, later, industrialized European mainstream. Having preserved the norse language, customs and [|norse literature|literature]], and recently reclaimed the oldest surviving manuscript containing the Snorri Edda from the Danes, a movement arose adopting the term Ásatrú as a description of the authentic folk religion of the Icelenders. In 1972, the Icelandic Ásatrúarfélagið was made formal by Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson and associates. Similar organizations have been established in other Scandinavian countries, and are increasingly winning recognition as authentic practitioners of an ethnic religion. As Ásatrú spreads beyond Iceland and Scandinavia, the curious brand of political extremism it seems to inspire or attract has followed in its trail. Ásatru, formerly associated with the left, new age, Tolkien enthusiasts and the youth revolution of the 60's, is increasingly being appropriated by elements of the extreme right.
Official status in Iceland
I took out the part about Asatru being recognised as the official state religion of Iceland, what it was probably meant to say was that it got official recognition as a religious organization. It's a group on the extreme fringe of Icelandic society, the official state religion is the Iceland National Church (Þjóðkirkja) which is Lutheran. You're basically born into it and need to take certain steps to be taken off the books as an official Christian.
Non-standard characters
There is some discussion & debate over this at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Old Norse/Old Icelandic/Old English), but in general, I was under the impression that the article titles should always use the standard 26-letter English alphabet (plus numbers, where appropriate), as opposed to any accents, graves, or other diacritical marks. (See Wikipedia:Naming conventions.) Personally, I know next to nothing of Norse spellings or romanizations; I write primarily Japan-related entries. Still, see Kyoto rather than Kyōto, and Tokyo as opposed to Tōkyō. LordAmeth 00:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Use of Potentially Confusing Words
I would appreciate some definitions of terms used in this article; many of the words used here are potentially very ambiguous, charged with a multiplicity of meanings. For example, the word "heathen" is used repeatedly, with no explanation of how the term is being applied. Is it to mean non-Christian? Some particular form of Pagan ritual? Dirty? Alien to the state religion? Many religious words have multiple meanings, and sometimes you can have contradictory meanings in a single word. For a much better example than I could possibly enumerate without taking up MUCH too much space on this talk page, please reference religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm). Tyro the Kinky Kitty
Too much specificity?
Lately (June 2005) there have been a number of changes/additions regarding the tenets of Asatru that may not be quite correct. While it may be that the information is correct with respect to the group the person making the changes travels in, it is far from clear to me that these are all necessarily the "dominant" form. Part of the difficultly, of course, is that there is no central authority and the religion is practiced differently from region to region.
While, for example, belief in the existence of the gods and goddesses as something other than a figment of the worshipper's imagination might be "marginalized and derided" in some groups, I'm not certain that it is correct to say that position is in the minority among those who call themselves heathen or Asatru. As a statement, it suggests a higher level of orthodoxy than I believe is really present. But hey, I'm not the most well-informed of people, if you can back it up go ahead and cite a source.
Reading what has been written, one might wonder if most Asatru adherents are 20 year old male agnostic SCA members in a Nordic-themed social club. In my opinion, that is a rather limited view.
Therefore, I urge less specificity in the portion of the article outlining the general religious tenets of Asatru adherents.