Academic Kids talk:Finding images tutorial

I need an image ...

... is a frequent request at Wikipedia. Last month there was a discussion on the VP (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump&oldid=4122144#How_to_get_images_permission.3F), section How to get images permission?), and some wikipedians were happy to receive tips about how to get an image from Google or somewhere else. I think there is the need for a summary of such kind of advice, and since I was doing a lot of work on Wikipedia:Requested pictures, I had some experience and wrote a Wikipedia:Finding images tutorial. Please let me know if this is useful, and feel free to add links and (hust) fix my grammar and spelling (hust). happy editing -- Chris 73 | Talk 05:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the note on my talk page directing me here Chris. I really like the page, thank you for the good work. At first I thought it was a bit Google Images-centric, but then again finding images is generally a bit Google Images-centric! And of course you mention Wikipedia:Public domain image resources which has a further reach than Google in some ways.

I think you've covered my usual routes to image success - the "site:.gov OR site:.mil" trick, and selecting the right person to ask for permission. The only other thing I've done is scan in public domain images from books. (I asked about this on one of copyright pages, and the feeling amongst legally-minded folks was that this was legit even if the book is a recent print, so long as the pictures/photos are old). Thanks again. Pcb21| Pete 07:48, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Something to beware of is being liable for a reproduction fee, even though the picture is out of copyright. I am associated with a UK publsher and we have had projects bite the dust because the library fees asked were more than the probable profit from the print run, so much so that eminently respectable and scholarly well illustrated work becomes unpublishable. Many museum and library collections make their money this way with sales for varying print runs and also CDs. No doubt websites are included as well. I have known a website post local history pix(which were in copyright) from one of our books, the thinking being that if one owns, or borrows, the book then one can do what one likes. It aint't so I am afraid. Having said that, this is an excellent page, Many thanks.Apwoolrich 20:30, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pleased to meet you AP, I am pleased to know we have people who know about publishing on board. A quick question for you: Under what circumstances is a production fee due on a public domain image? Just so I understand, let's say only the British Museum has some image, and you pay them to get a digital copy of the image. Then you put it on your website with a public domain notice. I see it, and copy it to use in Wikipedia - can there be fees to pay even then? Pcb21| Pete 07:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi Pete, the situation as I read it is that even though the image is out of copyright, the fact that you pay the library for a print means they can then charge you a separate fee, over the cost of making the copy, for you to reproduce that copy elsewhere. For example the Science and Society Picture Library (part of the Science Musuem in London) issues a schedule along the lines of the following.

Type of product (Book, CD etc)

Print run, 2000, 2,000-5,000 and to on up to over 50,000.

Territory rights UK or one country only, UK and commonwealth but not Canada, and so on up to World Rights in all languages.

Web page use is not specifically listed on this particular form but I expect they will catch on to it.

One fills in the form and they send you a quotation. Maybe they are up for a dignified haggle if its not for profit!

I might add it is my experience that in the UK, libraries do vary. Some academic libraries have rules that not for profit is free but you send them a copy of the publication. On others is nominal with no restriction on numbers (up to 20 UKP per pix). Others are down right greedy more (in some cases a lot more) than 80 UKP per image. You can see that if one wishes to produce a picture book based on a particular collection, then if the costs are far more than the likely profit, its a non-starter.

There are also commercial picture libraries who exist to make a profit.

Maybe it would be worth the WikiFoundation having conversations with a major academic library like the BL to see is we might come to an arrangement with them. Otherwise individual editors might be faced with an earful if they step out of line, especially if its some esoteric stuff which cannot reasonably be found elsewhere.

Copyright violation of images is a serious problem, especially on the web and on CD-repoduction and I would hate to see Wikipedia being mired in a law suit through ignorance of editors of what the rules are. Cheers Apwoolrich 13:21, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Repro fees #2

Since the above I have been doing some work on the Web. Its not very scientific but it appears that image-providers have scales of fees depending on the time the image in on the web page (3mo, 6mo, perpetial etc) The only discussion I was able to find on the morality of it, in the time I was searching, is a very interesting 1999 article from the perspective of a publisher of art books See http://www.indiana.edu/~aah/vol2_iss1.html.

Also some providers of web images like the Science and Society Picture Library (see above) use a very coarse screen when digitising (75DPI for example) so its impossible to make usable prints. They are perfectly legible on screen but cannot be used for anything else.

Maybe we should try and ensure the editors own the images and books they copy, or elso only use explictly copyright free images such as the Dover Series. Or build up a list of editors in specialist fields who would be willing to provide pix from their collections for free.

I hope this helps. Cheers Apwoolrich 18:35, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Recommendations

I recommend:

• Use Altavista Image Search instead of Google Image Search. The former will give you better results.
• When asking the copyright owner permission to use their work, don't say you want to use it; say Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, wants to use it for its article on x. You may want to provide a url to the article and mention the proposed caption. 205.217.105.2 17:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)