Talk:Waldorf School
From Academic Kids
Template:POV check While criticism of Waldorf education is of course sometimes legitimate, consider suspect any organizations associated with the critic Dan Dugan, who is perhaps the chief organizer against Waldorf Schools. See"Audio McCarthyism" (http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/107/) a six-page article from "Stereophile" magazine, which presents Dugan as a user of McCarthyite deception and smear tactics.
Talk about smear tactics! The Stereophile article has nothing to do with Waldorf education--it's a hysterical reaction to my busting of consumer fraud in the "high end" hi-fi business. The above paragraph is by Sune Nordwall, himself hysterical about anybody having the gall to criticize his cult's school. -Dan Dugan
The personalities of Dan Dugan and Sune Nordwall are not relevant to maintaining the article on Waldorf Schools. This is pure ad-hominem argument. Note that a warning that a person or organization is presenting false or misleading information about the subject may be appropriate, if accompanied by specific evidence of same, which could then be discussed. In the absence of that I intend to edit this irrelevant discussion out after allowing time for objection. (This comment and others in bold are by Abd.)
Links: Waldorf Critics and Waldorf Survivors offer very personal views of individual schools by individuals who have been overly challenged by some aspect of Waldorf Education. No two Waldorf schools are identical in nature and the experiences of individuals vary.
The individuals running these sites have very subjective and negative views on waldorf education.
The sure do, I'm one of them. What's interesting is the problems that crop up at Waldorf schools all over the world. These indicate systemic problems. -Dan Dugan
The last two paragraphs add nothing to the discussion. the first one simply repeats what was in the paragraph before, only with more highly charged language, and the second, while a little more relevant, still lacks specifics, and could be said about nearly any social movement.
Parents considering Waldorf for their children are encouraged to meet the individual teachers at the prospective Waldorf/Steiner school they would attend.
This should practically go without saying, and should apply to any form of education. It seems innocuous enough, however.
See also:
www.waldorfworld.net/waldorflist (posted by 68.42.193.141)
So, are you saying that Waldorf advocacy sites are not very subjective? I think that people contemplating sending their kids to a Waldorf school should consider arguments from both sides. Rosemary Amey 05:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
A better article will make this easier, though it is a little bit of black-and-white thinking to imagine that the issue of Waldorf education has only two sides! Let's work on the article to give it a true NPOV.
Copyright. Is that information copyrighted? Perl 13:59, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Good question. Such a lengthy quote seems out of place in an encyclopedia article. Rosemary Amey 05:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
The pro-Waldorf quotes, aside from possible copyright issues, do seem out-of-place in an encyclopedia article. Perhaps a reference to Waldorf testimonials would be in order, rather than actually quoting them.
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Racism?
First off- I am not anti-Waldorf, I have a lot of respect for the Waldorf system- in particular the associated Camphill communities (a Scottish, special-needs variant of Waldorf schools)
As somebody thinking about sending a child to a Waldorf school, I would like some clarification on what role racist theory plays in the ethos of Waldorf education. I have, for example, seen the following quote in a number of articles on the internet (from an interview with Rudolf Steiner in "German Weekly" 1888).
"You see, when we really study science and history, we must conclude that if people become increasingly strong, they will also become increasingly stupid. If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. ... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish."
There also appear to be several more references to African people being "sub-races".
Although Waldorf schools appear to be progressive, caring, gentle places, I cant help thinking that they appear to be a little "aryan" (emphasis on german culture, predominance of caucasian children).
I know that there is perhaps no simple answer to these questions, but it would be nice to get some answers from individuals who are neither extremely "pro" or "anti" the Waldorf system.
Not Racist
Hello, I'm a Waldorf homeschooler who researched these accusations of racism when I first started. It just didn't seem to jive with the holistic beauty of the education. SO anyway, you asked, so I'm trying to respond.
Steiner was using a whole different definition of race -- meaning the entire human "race" is passing through different stages. This was all based in the work of a popular Theosophist (is that the term?) at the time. Steiner later rejected the whole teminology and used the new term "cultural epoch" to apply to the same idea.
I found two articles that helped me with the racism/anti-semitic accusations, the first very factual, and the second seems to be from a very personal viewpoint. I hope they help you decide. Here are the links: http://www.defendingsteiner.com/misconceptions/index.php http://www.coulee-de-serrant.com/steinerangl.htm Best wishes
Why is this link inluded in this article?
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/107/
Is the above link really relevant? The linked article relates to a rather esoteric debate about hifi cables from 1992. It contains no references, direct or indirect to Waldorf education. It does however show that somebody once disagreed with "Dan Dugan's" (no suggestion that it is the Dan Dugan) ideas about stereo systems.
Why is this link inluded in an article about Waldorf schools?
- The link was included as other research has shown that it is the same D. Dugan, and in other venues his language and tactics regarding Waldorf Education have been similar.
- This seems like an ad-hominem arguement to me. Dugan may be an idiot- but are the points he make idiotic? In order to counter his criticisms it is necessary to publish them together with critiques of the points he raises by observers. By censoring and defaming Dugan, you merely lend him more credibility.--Fergie 10:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Inappropriate
- Waldorf schools' pedagogy and practice have often been widely hailed for their creativity and intelligent design, not only by satisfied parents, but by independent educational experts.
Which is followed by two supporting quotes. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should strive not to promote any entity. I do not doubt that those quotes are true, and that it is factual to say that Waldorf schools have been positively "hailed." But, while the existence of those quotes is factual, the quotes' meaning is not. They present what are, from any eye, opinions, not facts. As Wikipedia pledges to be free of ads and to contain only factual information, those opinions should be removed. ✈ James C. 03:51, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
P.S. Granted, I am a deviant. I also believe the vast majority of sentences starting with "many believe" should also be removed. POV should not apply to mere personal opinions, but also those widely held.
- This is not only your opinion, it is the collective opinion of wikipedians- see the wikipedia styleguide section on this
- --Fergie 08:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Federal Lawsuit
A lawsuit challenging the some "Waldorf methods" public (state supported) elementary schools in California has been on going for several years. The organization filing the lawsuit (PLANS) has the website of http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/critics.html. The idea of the lawsuit doesn't belong in the article for sure, but I think it is instructive of how contentious some of the people posting to this topic can be. While I know that the Wikipedia trys to have neutral evaluations of topics, I think it will be hard in this case unless the administrators take the ability to edit the article away.
Minor change
I changed the obviously biased "independent experts and satisfied parents widely" part to "adherents", in the interest of pursuing NPOV. I hope I didn't offend anybody.
Two questions
First, why does it say this article may be biased when it seems to contain both positive and critical information? I can't seem to find any information on it.
Second, as a homeschooler in a growing Waldorf homeschool movement, I would like to see the name of this article changed to 'Waldorf Education' with 'Waldorf School' being a redirect that takes you there. Waldorf is a big part of schools, homeschools, special communities for the disabled, etc.
