Talk:Two-Spirit
From Academic Kids
This was all from memory, as my copy of the book is in storage in Illinois.
Actually, the Navajo word is nadleeh; the Lakota word is winkte.
I think it should be made clear that there is a lot of confusing information in this article as it now stands. It has a very Eurocentric anthropological view. I would encourage folks to look at the work done by Indigenous, Two-Spirit identified folks, such as Terry Tafoya, Beatrice Medicine, and Wesley Thomas rather than rely on the information here.
Time
Bunches of edits, to dispell the notion that two-spirit is an old concept, that all two-spirits are male, and that being a two-spirit implies men acting as women (rather than a man-woman acting as a man-woman, regardless of anatomy). Ronabop 10:11, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The article still needs a lot of work regarding "Two-Spirit", the modern concept or gender-role, and its historical sources in both American Indians' conceptions of gender roles and the intrusion of European influenced gender roles.
- For instance: "These individuals are often viewed as having two spirits, and two sexes, at the same time. Their dress is usually mixture of male and female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes. For instance, there was one ceremony during the Sun Dance that was performed only by a member of this group."
- Only the last sentence is in past tense, because it is describing a pre-Two Spirit gender-role and activitiy.
- I suggest we break the article in two large sections, pre-TS [Two-Spirit], and TS [Two-Spirit].
- Hyacinth 20:29, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Pre-TS and TS? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Contemporaty and historical is a possible distincion, or pre-colonialisation or something, but pre- and post-TS mean exactly nothing, because I don't think that there is any reasonable relation to a particular medical diagnosis. Not to mention that most "modern" people who call themseves "two-spirit" are not transsexual in the first place. -- AlexR 22:28, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry, TS = Two-Spirit. Hyacinth 06:01, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- OK - but this does not make too much sense, either - what is supposed to be pre-Two-Spirit and (post-)Two-Spirit? I guess you mean something like historical and modern, but I take that guess from what you wrote, the words do not make much sense to me - or is it just me, and I am a bit slow here? Also, I don't think that splitting the article would make much sense, as far as I know many two-spirited people particularly wish to continue the old tradition; and both articles would be rather short, too. The article itself should simply have two headings, currently, I think this would be sufficient. Just my 2 cents. -- AlexR 10:02, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
So, we agree that the article should have two sections, one about pre-colonial __________, and one about colonial and post-colonial two spiritedness.
--- Deleted this section: "Today, groups of cross gendered male bodied persons have picked up the tradition of the two-spirit and put them into practice. These groups include the Radical Faeries, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and others" because it is a misnomer to name non-Native groups "Two-Spirit." The Radical Faeries and Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence draw on European, not First Nations traditions, and the use of "Two-Spirit" to speak of non-Native people is usually considered offensive.
I disagree that this should have been deleted. There are non-Natives using the term for themselves. Whether or not they 'should' do so is another issue. I'd instead expect that Wikipedia include this reference, even if there is a notation that to the effect that 'this may not be seen as apropriate by Native Americans'. (Though a digression, my use of 'Native American' is another example of allowing people to choose the names they use for themselves.)
Also, I believe that the concept of "Two-Spirit" is not as pervasive among Native Americans as is implied. (I had never heard of this phrase or nor the particular concepts directly related to it until in an academic situation.) I do not intend to say that the concept is inapplicable for all Native American traditions, however. I will suggest that concepts of strict gender role have never had a real analogue among at least Creeks.
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Rather than splitting this article into two, it might be better to indicate that US/Western-style achetypical gender roles have not existed as a complete system among many Native American traditions -- I'm avoiding using 'tribe' or 'nation' to avoid other semantic/diction/political problems. I'd suggest that generally roles -- whether currently classed in US society as roles of gender, religion, politics, medicine, psychology, what-have-you -- come to exist as the need for such roles come about and that the people appropriately suited for them are available to fill such roles. When the people and/or need for the roles no longer exist then the roles are no longer filled.
In less abstract terms -- and to couch it in terms that more easily fit US/Western gender roles -- when soldiers are needed, the most physically capable rise to fill that need; likewise when tender caring is needed those able to provide that step forward. It would generally be accepted, then, that should there be a person that can do both, they do do both without question by others in the society because that person is merely 'doing what they do' (and consequently providing the best possible for the society).
I would then explain the etymolygy of 'Two-Spirit' (I have no idea which language is the source of this English translation). (I have to wonder if this term in English was put forth by a non-Native academic researcher, but I digress...) Finally I would explain that both some Native Americans who would be classed as 'Queer' or 'Trans' (i.e. 'Transsexual' or 'Transgender') in the commonly-held US/Western society and some non-natives are using the 'Two-Spirit' to describe themselves, though they may maintain different meanings for the term.
Note that I would not split the ideas as pre/post-invasion (aka pre/post-colonial) or historical/current. Native American people, cultures, ideas are indeed extant, though their essential elements are not brought out in the commonly-held US/Western society.
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Making diction edits, particularly to remove the use of 'braves' as this is another inappropriate usage. mossymosquito 21 Jun 2005
Removed terms
- Blackfeet
- Male: Aki-skassi
- Female: Aki-Gwan
I removed the above terms as there is no source and no indication of which group called "Blackfeet" uses those terms. It is not the Blackfoot of the Blackfoot Nation located in Montana. Hyacinth 20:20, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- See http://www.nwtwospiritsociety.org/history.html Ronabop 12:47, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The article linked to above doesn't specify any more than the wikipedia article does.
- See: Blackfoot. WHICH Blackfoot group uses the terms?
- According to Bruno Nettl (1989) there is no documentation of MTF (for lack of a better term) Two-Spirit folks, while there are well documented FTM or "manly hearted women".
Hyacinth 22:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
