Talk:Trotskyism
From Academic Kids
Hmm. This is just one flavour of trotskyism - there are many, many organisations calling themselves 'the fourth international'
Secretlondon 17:42, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)
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The Trotskyism article
First time post to wikipedia--which is great, I love it--but this article is pretty bad so I had to respond. First of all Trotskyists would never refer to themselves as "Trotskyites"--a word which this article seems to use interchangeably. "Trotskyite" is a slur a Stalinist would use, often inaccurately, to describe an enemy; "Trotskyist" is a political ideology many people claim. Calling Trotskyists "Trotskyites" is like calling communists "commies" or calling the Democratic Party "the Democrat Party"--it's an insult that is used to amuse or enrage, depending on the context.
Secondly I laughed to see the Socialist Workers Party (US) listed with the Socialist Workers Party (Britain) as a prime example of Trotskyism. First of all these two organizations come from very different branches of Trotskyism. Second, the SWP (US) was the main Trotskyist organization in the US up until (arguably) the early 80s, when it imploded and split into several competing tendencies. What is left of the SWP is arguably not Trotskyist; at the very least it represents a non-orthodox form of Trotskyism that more or less rejects Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution. The most emblematic representatives of Trotskyism in the US are the International Socialist Organization (a relatively large, fairly white, group based mainly around college campuses and recent ex-students which positions itself slightly to the left of reformism; the ISO differs from orthodox Trotskyism in that it considers the former Soviet Union and other "communist" countries as "state capitalist" rather than "deformed or degenerated workers' states") and the Spartacist League (a relatively medium-small group which prides itself on doctrinal purity, fights with other Trotskyists, and tries to take over meetings).
I'm a little intimidated of trying to edit the article myself, but I would be happy to try in conjunction with some other people. What's there now isn't a very full picture and is inaccurate in some respects.
Kod65red 03:11, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've rewriten the first sentence of the last para which contained a reference to a 'communist state'. While one might get away with using such an expression in everyday life it won't do in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. For the simple fact that the very idea of a communist state is a contradiction in terms. Communism is the abscence of a state and of classes in Marxian theory. Lenin went so far as to describe a workers' state as a bourgeois state minus the bourgeoisie. This was in order to indicate that the workers' state was the beginning of the transition to commuism and a society that was truly egalitarian and therfore stateless. H0ow anyone can write such guff is beyond me.
Jock Haston
Contentious area
Given what the article itself establishes - that Trotsky's heirs and epigones are notoriously argumentative - it is surely impossible to define this 'ism' in a way which appears to everyone as an NPOV. One suggestion, though: for some people involved or associated with that movement, it is less a specific theory of Leon Trotsky's and more a tradition of political opposition to Stalinism that they identify with. Focusing on the tradition, not the theory, might make more sense. Adhib 08:18, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The section below seems to be to clearly be taking a political stance:
The International Socialist Organization supported Ralph Nader, an anti-socialist candidate in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. Britain's SWP supported George Galloway, an establishment Labor politician, in his campaign under the Respect Coalition, which included Islamist groups. Like Nader's campaign was meant to influence the Democrats, the Respect Coalition means to push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it with a party truly representing the working class. Both Nader and Galloway accept money from right-wing groups to help their campaign, Nader from Republicans and Galloway from Arab nationalist governments.
Calling Orwell a socialist writer is probably a stretch, too
Trotskyism in the Third World
Why is the claim of few Trotskyists in the Third World disputed? It doesn't make sense to demand "support" of a statement that few Third World revolutionaries embrace Trotskyism. Point to some Trotskyist parties in the Third World if you can. I don't know of a single one, though I do know of various other Marxist trends that are active there.
I have restored the sentence, with "rejected by Third World revolutionaries" changed to "rare among Third World revolutionaries". Shorne 16:55, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, the "rejected" part is precisely the one I demanded some support for. That is because "rejection of Trotskyism" may imply an active opposition to Trotskyism or Trotskyist ideas, which is certainly not the case for Third World Marxist revolutionaries. I agree with the current version of the article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:57, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I agree that "rejected" was a bit too strong, and I thank you for objecting to it. Shorne 18:06, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With regard to Bolshevik Leninist tendencies in the former colonial world - note the term Third World is not to be found in the Trotskyist lexicon - there were many. For example the largest workers party in ceylon was the Lanka Sama Samaja Party. there remains a large milieu of Trot groups in ceylon to this day. In Vietnam the Bolshevik Leninism was a large tendency in Siagon until it was persecuted and its leaders murdered by the Stalinists who were working with the imperialists. Again in Bolivia the POR was a mass party among the indistrial working class and played a major role in then revolution of 1952. Trotskyism is till influential there too. oif brazil and Argentina are considered Thjird World thjere too are large influential groups There was a sizeable Trotskyist group in Cuba before it was repressed by Castro. Finally there is a large trotskyist group in Algeria with considerable representation in parliament.
Jock Haston
- Jock, welcome to wikipedia! Why don't you register yourself? It is fast and easy and free of monthly charge, and gives you a number of conveniences, such as the way of keeping track of your contributions and more. Mikkalai 08:13, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So I did another edit on the Trotskyism in the Third World bit. As it was written, it made it sound like Sri Lanka was the only less-developed country with a significant Trotskyist presence, which is false. Without going into long comparisons with other tendencies, perhaps this is an improvement? --Kod65red 23:22, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually the second largest section of Committee for a Workers' International is the Nigerian one. --Dalen 23:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Reorganizing this article
I wonder if this article needs a substantial reorganization. I get the impression that at each phase, someone has written another few sentences and then someone of the opposite viewpoint has edited them. So we have a positive presentation of Trotskyism and critiques of Trotskyism meshed together, and every line reads differently.
My proposal is that we reorganize the article more systematically, with a new section entitled "Critiques of Trotskyism" or something like that. Then the pejoratives and so forth could be organized under that header, and it might be easier to read. --Kod65red 23:21, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Till then, I've fixed the final sentence that referred to "communist states".--Che y Marijuana 01:13, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
