Talk:Trombone
From Academic Kids
- The repertoire of trombone solo and ensemble literature has grown steadily since its beginnings in the Romantic era,
That's not right. I am currently working on one of many trombone solos from the classical/pre-classical era (this one by Wagenseil). The alto trombone in particular was as virtuosic a solo instrument as any in mid 18th-century Vienna. The tenor trombone was written for in the first half of the 19th century throughout Germany. The existing statement is just untrue.
Also, contrabass trombones can be pitched in G or F, like older bass trombones - and the G bass trombone is still in use in England today. Thechuck
- You are, of course correct. If it wasn't 3:30 in the morning, I'd fix it myself. --Jemiller226 07:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Could a knowlegeable trombonist mention the positions of the slide, and the in-joke that 8th (?) position actually means that the slide has flown right out and brained the viola section? ;-) -- Tarquin
We need to get this clear about the build and pitch of the instrument; I see from the History that it has already been back and forth a couple of times, and it would be a shame if Trombone Pitch Wars (TM) were to ensue.
It is not correct to have, as we did till recently:
- The standard tenor trombone, pitched in C,
I do know what the writer meant but it just isn't that simple. Sure it plays in C insofar as it is (usually) a non-transposing instrument, but I think the terminology "pitched in" carries with it a more fundemental label about the instrument and how it was built - the length of the tube. If I take a tbn out of the case and play the easiest couple of notes I can, without moving the slide, I'll get Bbs and maybe Fs - a patently B flattish lot of notes. If I want Cs I have to go to 6th position (or maybe 3rd if I try a bit harder!). It just isn't "pitched" in C.
To attempt to work round this I have tried to separate out the built pitch from the way its played by mentioning both. I think this works quite well. If people insist on mentioning only one pitch at that point in the article (given that this is explained better, later) then it should almost certainly be Bb. Nevilley 08:35 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)
- I feel absolutely compelled to fix this discrepancy with, "...is also pitched in a nontransposing B♭." Any mention of C is just plain incorrect apart from the possibility of mentioning that playing a written C produces a sounding C. Sorry, my trombone performance degree is getting the better of me, here. =) --Jemiller226 19:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think your solution is a good one, and I've tried to do something similar at key (music) - I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean) and maybe there's a better way. This will certainly do for now, however. --Camembert
- Thanks - if a better solution presents itself we can always rethink it all a bit! :) Nev.
- This is a good and workable solution. I will be checking with a PhD Music Theory friend about this soon. :) - Psssycho
- oh and wrt to Tarquin's bit above, there is a horrendous story doing the rounds at the moment about a trombonist accidentally killing the tpt player in front with the slide! Not really encyclopedic material I hasten to add, but ... blimey! Nevilley 15:22 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)
- Looks like something similar was reported a while ago in the inestimable Weekly World News - see [1] (http://www.trumpetplayeronline.com/trombone_kills_trumpet.html). I remember them printing a story once about a chess player who thought too hard about one of his moves, causing his brain to explode. Reuters they ain't ;) --Camembert
- I've had a quick google around just out of curiosity. In English all you find are copies of the same story with the same wording, mostly on humour pages. In German you find nothing at all. Conclusion: great story, but fictitious! :) Nevilley
Coming back to this from Camembert:
I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean)
It's tricky, isn't it - I mean, I know what it means, but I spend much of my life worrying about these things so I am hardly an impartial judge. I have recently seen your Key article and I think that covers or starts to cover it very well - what has to be got over is the relationship between the physical fact of its length/setup/whatever, and the way we choose to play it. A Bb tpt being built in Bb and yes, dammit, it's about 4'6" long so that's what comes out the end when you blow the accursed thing!!! I am almost sure we've got quite a lot of the right material here, in one place and another. :) Nevilley
- It's chewy, as you say, but I don't think we're in too bad shape at the moment. I can't think of a better way of putting it than saying such and such an instrument is built in such and such a key - maybe "a Bb trumpet has a fundamental of Bb" or something? I really don't know though - you don't have to worry about this sort of stuff when you play the fiddle ;) --Camembert
Could someone add something about those bowl things some players use? What exactly are they, and what do they do? CGS 14:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC).
| Contents |
Why was this removed?
Apropos of what the tbn is like when playing with the plug: "In fact, there are only six real positions available to the player, since the slide is too short for what is now really a trombone in F." Why was this removed? Is it actually wrong?? Thanks, Nevilley 00:03, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
- In the absence of any reply to that, I've restored the sentence. It seems odd, as the anonymous editor's other work on the piece seemed sensible. I'd be delighted to discuss it. Nevilley 21:31, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
- I checked this on my tenor trombine (a Conn 88) and it's not true. The slide is plenty long enough to reach 7th position when playing in F. So I removed the claim. (Maybe there are trombones with slides that are too short to play in F? But then why would anyone buy such an ill-made instrument?) Gdr 11:35, 2004 Jul 25 (UTC)
- The slide stays the same length. With the F attachment enabled, 7th position is a G. PlatinumX 18:34, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)
- The slide stays the same length, but the positions get longer - by a ratio of 4/3. If you work it out, 7th position (B/F#) is off the end of the slide by 10 cm or so, and 6th (C/G) is just about on it, with a little bending of the note down. Either Gdr is bending the note down a long way artificially or s/he is using the incorrect sense given by PlatinumX above. I've restored the sentence - the original was correct.Dave Taylor
- As Dave Taylor noted, the 6 positions allowed inside the valve are in different than those outside it. Because "6th position" (C/G) is just on the end of the slide, it is referred to as a flat or lowered 7th position. In a similar manner the 6 positions inside the valve are known relative to the Bb slide positions: 1st, flat 2nd, flat 3rd, 5th, flat 6th, flat 7th, where it is understood that flat 3rd and flat 7th are lowered considerably more than flat 2nd or 6th. I think this may be noteworthy, or at least that there is what is known as a "7th position" inside the trigger, even though it is actually the 6th playable one. Thechuck 09:55, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- You're not wrong, but it has always been more useful for me to consider (and teach) that there are more like 5.5 trigger positions, labelled simply T1 through T5 plus a T6 that almost always requires the note to be lipped down in order to be in tune (i.e. the C two leger lines below the bass clef staff in "T6"). I have yet to encounter a model of trombone in which this was not the case, and indeed some seem to require pulling the attachment's tuning slide out in order to get that last note in tune, which, in turn, makes T1 an interesting proposition. =) --Jemiller226 19:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Time for an organization, methinks?
Check out the flute, clarinet, and saxophone... Those pages are much better organized than this. Reading the trombone wiki, it's pretty disjointed, even just adding headers would probably help quite a bit.
So, I hereby request an update, to be done by someone who has the time and inclination to do so.
A lot more info could be added to the "Playing the Trombone" section. For example, slide position charts, and a discussion of how slurring is different on the trombone than on other brass instruments. Hrothgar137
started a bit of the reorganization
I added a 'construction' section that completed the previous partial description of the trombone. I took out the bit about the trombone is the French word for paperclip as it seemed a bit to tangential. I will try to get a position chart put together as well as some points that might be useful for composers and arrangers.
I'm back - I have a user id now: Ph11 - In an attempt to make the article more readable for people who don't know (or want to know) that much about trombones in the first place.
See also...
Why the unilateral removal of a ton of links? At least half of those names weren't jazz trombonists, and no effort was made to differentiate between those who are and those who aren't. *sigh* --Jemiller226 06:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
- Most of them actually where trombonists imho. No names should have gone lost.. Tobias
- I'm fairly sure that there are other, more ideal places to put those names, such as list of jazz trombonists or even trombonist. Unless, of course, we were to put the names we wanted to in a sort of history of trombonists, similar to is done at Tennis. MToolen 12:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
