Talk:Transposing instrument

From Academic Kids

With our technogy now, why can't we change trasposing instruments to non -transposing inst? Im not a clarinet player so i wonder how they play a clarinet.. but I have a question..As for example Clarinet in A, since we know that when i play Eb note i will hear C, then why not we just change the usual Eb fingering as to C fingering. THen we have less trouble in transpoing them.

Please enlight me.. thanks.

I imagine we don't change a) for historical reasons, because classical musicians want to keep playing in the same way and b) because there's no need. transposing instruments don't do so because of a lack of technology, but because it is convenient to keep the same fingering for the same note. A clarinet player sees the note "E" and fingers "E" no matter what. if you mean we should redesign the clarinet with completely different holes, then it would become a different instrument, and would have to be learned agin -- Tarquin 16:41 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

This question could be tackled a number of different ways.

If you mean "why aren't all parts simply written in concert pitch, and let the players learn the "real" pitches associated with a given note?", Tarquin's answer is correct when you consider the same players switch between, for example, Eb alto and Bb tenor saxes. It would greatly steepen the learning curve.

If you mean "why don't all instruments standardize on 'C as a fundamental pitch?'", there are at least two problems I can think of:

- if you want to have instruments which are roughly in the soprano, alto, tenor, and bass ranges, you're going to have to construct them so that their ranges center on notes which are about a 4th or 5th apart. Flute is in "C" - Alto Flute is in "G". Alto sax Eb, tenor sax Bb, and so on.

Granted, string players have the same situation with, for example, violins, violas, cellos and basses, and they don't transpose, but string players don't double, because they play all the time anyway. So they accept the fact that if you play violin, learning to play viola would involve a whole lot more "re-learning." Also, keep in mind that they sort of do a similar thing by using more different clefs - alto and tenor clefs in addition to the more familiar treble and bass. This is to minimize the number of ledger lines (lines to show notes above or below the clef) they have to read.

- Keep in mind that some of these transposed instruments came about not to allow extension of range, but to keep the player in more comfortable key signatures. This historically developed when wind instruments were less capable of playing all the sharps and flats, but it's still somewhat true. The best example I can think of is the Bb and A clarinets. They're only a half-step apart. Clarinetists mix them up sometimes when switching, with very bad results (I know, I'm a clarinetist!). But a Bb clarinet allows me to play in C when the concert key is Bb, in F when the concert key is Eb, and so on. I always read 2 less flats in the key signature than concert pitch. The A clarinet provides the same service in the sharp keys - I always read 3 less sharps than the concert key.

Perhaps another related question would be "why are there so many different transpositions for horns?" Why IS the alto flute in G, the english horn in F, clarinets in Ab (rare), C, Bb, A, Eb; saxes in Bb and Eb, the trumpet in Bb, E, A and so on? If they can't all be in C, why can't they all be in G or Bb or something?

Again, it's partly to allow key signatures to stay convenient, and again the A clarinet is a good example. It's worth noting that horns used mainly for orchestra work rarely transpose in Bb and Eb, and horns used mainly in bands rarely transpose in A, because orchestras play more easily in sharp keys than bands do. But it is also the result of history. These instruments were made in whatever key seemed good at the time, repertoire was built up around them, and now it's hard to change. However, lest you think musicians, composers, and arrangers are just hidebound by tradition, it is true that some of the transposing instruments have fallen by the wayside. Clarinets used to be made in lots of different pitches, but the standard soprano pair became the Bb and A and then practically all of the lower clarinets (alto, bass, contra, etc) became either Bb or Eb. Saxophones are all Bb or Eb, practically speaking.

- Gary622

Challenge to recorders

This statement:

the recorder family. While recorders are made in a variety of sizes (and hence pitches), the recorder player is expected to read music at true pitch and adjust fingering accordingly.

isn't true in my experience -- I've seen alto recorder parts in F (although it's true that recorder players are usually able transposers, and perhaps the parts I've seen were prepared by clever publishers for beginners).

Anyway, is it necessary to list instruments which aren't transposing? Why would anyone "expect" them to be? --Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm wrong. They aren't transposing instruments, and my memory must be going. Still, I'm going to rewrite that section. --Wahoofive 02:21, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mystery paragraph

The following paragraph (formerly with the heading "Notes") is meaningless to me:

The kind of transposition practiced by a given transposing instrument is always directly related to its fundamental pitch: an instrument in Eb always transposes to Eb (i.e. its own C will sound a concert pitch of Eb), never to Bb, D, G or any other note than Eb (in particular it follows that instruments whose fundamental pitch is C are never transposing); so to some extent being a transposing instrument (and what transposition such an instrument actually uses) has something to do with the physical properties of the instrument: at least the convention, if one wishes to call it that, is not entirely arbitrary; on the other hand it is true that there are wind instruments whose fundamental tone is a note other than C but that are not transposing instruments — see e.g. the recorder family.

It needs to be clarified or deleted.

--Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it starts with a bit of a false assumption. Brass instruments have a "fundamental pitch" which is based on what notes are easiest to get out of the horn, but woodwinds don't really work this way. There is an "open note" that sounds when no keys are pressed, but it has nothing to do with the range of the horn. Bb clarinets sound a concert "F" when no keys are pressed, for example. - Gary622

This paragraph only really applies to trumpets and horns, whose fundamentals do correspond to their transpositions. However, trombones and tubas have fundamentals of Bb and Eb but almost always read C music. This raises an interesting question- is the tromobne a C instrument or a Bb one?-Hrothgar137

Trombone (and tuba) is a nontransposing B♭ instrument. In fact, largely because of this confusion here and on the trombone article, I'm actually going to bother to write an article for nontransposing instruments, which should prove to be rather short, all things considered, but may clear up this mess once and for all. --Jemiller226 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)