Talk:Testosterone

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query

to people who head about scientific experimentation that talk about testosterone and hands

I moved above note which I think is part of a query to the Wikipedia:Reference _desk where it might get addressed, but could you add a bit about your question?Alteripse 01:50, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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• Removed "If the usual story plays out, use will increase until large trials demonstrate (1) the benefits are much less dramatic or assured than when treating deficiency, and (2) a higher incidence of side effects will occur associated with this type of use." As a pov speculative statement. The previous sentence needs rewording too. Matt 15:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• What do you think POV means? Do you have reason to disagree? Do you not think this pattern has occurred historically over and over? Alteripse 00:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Upon consideration, I partly agree with you. I made the sentence less editorial. Better? Alteripse 02:43, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Hello anonymous

You added some good points that deserve to be in another article, as well as some peculiar nonsense. This is what I removed:

Top Andrologists now accept Testosterone Deficiency is a progressive condition, sometimes taking many years to manifest. Rather than a sudden onset in mid-life, it is characterised by a slow decline in energy,cognitive function,mood and libido. Lifestyle and the atmosphere may be partly to blame as obesity, alcohol, drugs,(recreational and some prescribed), tobacco, chemicals and phytoestrogens all attack the body's endocrine balance.

The Pituitary gland's function tends to be at the root of this slow decline, however, the threshold set by leading Endocrinologists prevents all but those severely affected from receiving help. Pituitary related Testosterone Deficiency can often be treated better with pre-cursive hormones such as HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). Using hormones such as HCG allows the gonads to continue to produce Testosterone, whereas, exogenous Testosterone causes a partial shutdown of the body's natural supply. In cases where the Pituitary gland is the problem, exogenous Testosterone can exacerbate symtpoms, rather than relieving them.

Testosterone Deficiency is seen to be a secondary characteristic in many late onset conditions Researchers are suggesting Hypogonadism may actually cause Diabetes, Alzheimers, Cardiac conditions and Rheumatoid Arthritis. It is present in many others including Parkinsons Disease, Sickle Cell Anaemia, Downs Syndrome and Anaemia.

1. This sounds like drug company advertising copy, the type of thing written to promote use of a high profit, low demand drug. Or, the irritating use of capitals for phrases suggests to the reader that the text was copied and pasted from one of the "let's market this so people think it's an anabolic steroid" sites on the web.
2. Error no. 1. I don't know about andrologists (because anyone can call himself that), but every endocrinologist knows that the clearest, best understood, and most severe cases of testosterone deficiency are not slowly progressive at all, but present at birth, due to damage to testes at any age, or due to surgery or injury to the pituitary. But I suspect those are not your target audience-- you are referring to the decline of testosterone as a normal man ages-- which can be termed a partial deficiency relative to his levels when young. Every doctor has always "accepted" that it is gradual. Your choice of words suggests that the andrologists just caught on.
3. This is what some people (especially when paid by drug companies) refer to as andropause. The degree to which it is a physiologic change and or due to the "attacks" of lifestyle is not considered a settled subject. The validity of the whole concept of testosterone replacement for "andropause" was the subject of a pro and con debate at the Endocrine Society meeting in New Orleans this summer. A well-written lay version of the controversy was published in the New Yorker magazine in summer of 2001 or 2002.
4. I especially liked your sentence about the endocrinologists (sorry, "leading Endocrinologists") preventing the sorely afflicted from obtaining relief. Those heartless hormone withholders! It made me want to go badger an endocrinologist right away to prescribe some. What do you think is behind that reluctance to call the lower levels of aging a "deficiency"? After all, endocrinologists are in the business of pleasing patients and replacing hormones. They love to replace hormones. They get paid to replace hormones. Drug companies beg them to replace hormones. It might surprise you and astonish you to know that most "leading Endocrinologists" are aging men. Wow. Are they trying to keep all the testosterone for themselves? Do you think it might be a conspiracy?
5. Error no. 2. The pituitary is probably not the cause of the declining testosterone levels of age. The pituitary is a signal transducer, and is regulated by the hypothalamus. The real question being debated is whether the testosterone decline with age is to some degree adaptive and advantageous, or whether it can simply be considered a partial deficiency like any other.
6. Error no. 3. hCG! There's the answer! This little lie is slipped right in. Yes, I assume it is a downright lie, that you know better and wish to deceive the reader. In fact no one in their right mind thinks it is better to use hCG to replace testosterone. It's more expensive, it's more frequent injections, it's less proven, it's less physiologic, and you don't want to know where it comes from. However, it's also a generic product, so it isn't what you're selling. Hmmm, let me think... I've got it! You are selling fake hCG! One of those "homeopathic" sprays or drops or "releasers" sold in the muscle magazines and a zillion internet sites? Right?
7. Error no. 4. When given in appropriate doses to replace partial deficiency, testosterone doesn't "shut down the natural supply", though that is exactly what happens when excessive or unnecessary amounts are taken by men who don't need it.
8. Error no. 5. The business about the exogenous testosterone "exacerbating symptoms" when the pituitary is the problem is just plain crap. Testosterone is what is replaced for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (the kind of real testosterone deficiency where the "pituitary is the problem") in thousands of young and old men every day and it works.
9. Nice try. Subtle, except for the capitals, and the word "leading." Oh, and the mistakes. And you didn't even try to link your site. Admirable restraint. Now if my speculation is way off base, and you can back up your claims with some convincing references, I will eat humble pie and put your message back in. It can live here on the Talk page in the meantime.

PS, if you can keep your fingers off the shift key, and not mention hCG, we could use a good article on the andropause concept and controversy. Thanks. alteripse 13:41, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)