Talk:Tagalog language

Major Changes to Tagalog Page

I totally renovated this page. I was going to edit the stuff one by one and essentially leave the "backbone" intact. However, I felt it better to just rewrite it. I wrote the article under the guidelines of the template at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Language_Template . I've also modeled the stuff in here on various other language articles. The infobox has been done pink since that's what they assigned Austronesian languages to.

So the next thing to do is working to improve this article.

--Chris 04:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Tagalog is the most influenced?

There seems to be more Spanish words in Cebuano and Ilonggo. How about Chabacano? For the word mirror, Visayan speakers say espeho (espejo) rather than salamin, etc.. For 'could not bear it', V. speakers say 'Di magwanta' (aguantar), not 'Hindi matitiis'. Jondel

Maybe we could ask a Filipino linguist. He/she could definitely give a conclusive answer. Also, Chavacano is not a native language, being a creole of Spanish. --seav 21:08, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

I'm heavily into Philippine languages and linguistics for many years now, but I'm not a professional (yet). The languages that are spoken by Catholic Filipinos generally have the most Spanish borrowings as opposed those spoken by Muslims, such as Tausug, or those like Ifugao or Tboli. Yes, you will come across Spanish words in Cebuano or Ilokano that are not normally found in Tagalog and also vice-versa. In the end, I think it all evens out. --Chris 20:59, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My personal experience shows that the reason Tagalog has 'less' Spanish words in it than other Filipino languages is due to the fact that with the expulsion of the of the Spanish and the later independance from the US, there came a new sense of identity and patriotism. This affected Tagalog more than any other language because it was the presumtive 'national language'. Teachers of Tagalog adopted texts that had been purged of as many traces of Spanish as possible. They also dropped non-native letters and letter combinations like c,j,ch,ñ,x,ll and replaced them with the native versions k,dy,ts,ny,eks,y. This is also evident in modern texts which mandate a 'purest' version such as the translations of The Bible and court texts. Other Filipinos which have 'less' Spanish are those mountain languages where the Spanish influence was virtually non-existant. --Pr0f3550r 00:51, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also, I should say that while Chavacano has its foreign roots, it also has its native roots too. I couldn't make it not native. Chavacano has been the native language of about a half million Zamboagueños, Caviteños, Ternateños, and Cotabateños for generations now. However, it definitely is not an Austronesian language, if that's what you may have meant. ;-) --Chris 21:02, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This site Hispanismos (http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/hispani.html) lists the "hispanismos" of Tagalog, Cebuano, and Kapampangan. It might be a bit biased since I think the author is Cebuano but from my memory alone, being able to speak Tagalog and Cebuano, I get the feeling that there are lots more Spanish words in Cebuano like amigo/amiga (kaibigan in Tagalog), pobre (mahirap), guapa (maganda), abri (bukas), etc. Spanish words used in Tagalog not in Cebuano include almusal (pamahaw in Cebuano), benta (baligya), etc. The list on the web site is not very accurate, some words that are marked Tagalog are in common use among native Cebuano speakers like anomaliya, bisyo, etc. and a number of words should be marked Cebuano/Visaya only. --wng 04:00, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On more 'hirit'-Cebu is the first and oldest City in the Philippines. Long before Manila fell into the hands of the Spanish Conquerors in the 16th century, Cebu was already an established trading and military post for the Spaniards. Cebuano should have more Spanish words.--Jondel 23:55, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There's a wikibook. Everyone is invited to contribute to the 'How to Speak Tagalog' e-book --Jondel 00:22, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

the word na

Some linguists believe the Tagalog word na came from the Portugese. Na is also used in Japanese.--Jondel 02:45, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's highly unlikely and I question the methods these linguists used. Portuguese na is a contraction of the preposition em (in) and the feminine definite article a (the). Japanese na, while it does have some similarities with the way Tagalog's na is used particularly with adjectives, is pure coincidence. Tagalog's na is related to other Philippine languages' equivalents of it; be it nga, nak, ya, a, etc. The scope of which is greater than the Japanese one. Also, the origin of which is Proto-Austronesian *na, a genitive marker.

Furthermore, Chavacano does have na and roughly uses it in the same way Portuguese does. However, I think it's an innovation based on Spanish en and la. This applies to Zamboangueño, though I'm not sure if it applies to Caviteño. Chris 19:05, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One of the arguments for the monogenetic theory of pidgins is the presence of some common elements in most of the pidgins of the world. na is one of them. So probably Chabacano took it from some "broken Portuguese". An Austronesian homophone would have helped of course. --Error 01:27, 28 Feb 2005

But Chabacano doesn't have any direct Portuguese influence that I know of... --Chris 00:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ancient Spanish Preserved in Tagalog(Anybody , pls confirm)

• Palenque
• Tiangue--Jondel 10:17, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think we need to find a linguistics student or something. --seav 17:30, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to this web site link Espanol en Filipinas (http://www.tulane.edu/~spanling/Filipinas/Espanol_en_Filipinas.html), tiangue is a Latin American word used in the Philippines. Not sure if it is considered archaic in Castillian Spanish but continues to be used in Latin America or the word has a purely Latin American origin though. --wng 03:40, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, I stand corrected then. But I'm leaving the list above for those interested. I know that the Philippines wasn't directly represented in Spain but was governed from Mexico (New Spain). --Jondel 11:36, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

See also: http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/chaba6.html[Palenque - Old Mexican Spanish (Philippines was directly under Mexico, no direct representation in Spain)],Others:[Pera - Old Spanish : Perra-coins][Kwarta - Old Spanish  : Cuarta (Also used in Northern Spain)]--Jondel 07:35, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Believe it or not, sabon and relos are Spanish words that reflect when Spanish was pronounced differently. In Modern Spanish they are respectively jabón and reloj. I believe the j was pronounced in the same way that the French, Portuguese, and Catalans pronounce it. Also, if you look at old Tagalog texts (17th century) names like Jesús and Juan were spelled Sesus and Suan. --Chris 21:07, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Muchas gracias for this info.--Jondel 00:09, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Confirmed. What is j used to be x, in Spanish and pronouced as the j ( jsh sound) in French. ->See 'The name' section in Mexico. Mexico should have been Mejico but due to Mexican nationalism, blocked this orthographical change.--Jondel 04:01, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Depends. In Juan and Jesús it came from Latin Iohannes and Iesus, and I don't know how it was pronounced in early Spanish. In relox, xabón and México it would be pronounced as English sh. Later both colapsed in j.--Error 01:31, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Palenque

(http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/chaba6.html ) As early as the year 1450, a long time before there was any knowledge of the existence of Mexico, it was already used in Catalan as Palenc with the meaning of Palizade. Later on the 17th century it became common in the area of Colombia - Venezuela in South America. The original Catalan word now made American could have traveled on Galleon to Manila and later on with troops continued its way to Zam- boaga. In fact Palanque is more common in Tagalog than in Zamboangueno. There is still a better origin. In Sevilla and neighboring provinces Palenque means up to this day “the place wherein dry agriculture products are sold”. Sevilla in fact was the origin of the trips to America and than to Manila. The word has retained exclusively the sevillano meaning of market.--Jondel 08:34, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Separate Tagalog Grammar Page

Considering the burgeoning size, I would like to suggest a separate Tagalog Grammar. --Jondel 03:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I just moved it to Tagalog grammar. As I was exploring other language pages recently, I noticed this trend and thought that Tagalog should be that way. I think I'll add a small summary about the grammar soon on this page. --Chris 09:24, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Looks much better! It used to take so long to upload on my RAM deficient Celeron PC. Also makes it easy to switch to different sub-topics. --Jondel 23:22, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deep Tagalog

• I've had to interpret from Japanese to farmers in the very deep areas of the provinces of Laguna, Tayabas, etc. . Not even people in Manila know this due to their isolation. But they do use deep Tagalog. The Japanese Cooperative Agencies were trying to set up reforms and standardization of prices. The farmers for example would be willing to sell tomatoes at 25 centavos (Market price then was : 5 pesos ). The farmers , etc. don't have TV , or access to media, they don't even know or unfamiliar with local actresses and celebrities. In school(DLSU )we had social work and there are some actresses enrolled as students. They were surprised that they were unknown in those parts.--Jondel 00:24, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Verse

• Although it is a fad, it may become a part of the language. My Philippine literature professor mentioned this phenomena and said it should be considered worthy of study.--Jondel 00:24, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tagalog or Tagálog?

Is the language simply Tagalog, as the article title suggests, or is it more properly Tagálog, as the opening sentence indicates? --Dbenbenn 02:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

English only rarely tolerates accents even in names of languages, Provençal and Tupinambá are the exceptions I can think of. Tagalog itself does use the acute accent so Tagálog may well be the correct spelling in Tagálog and even Filipino, but probably not in English. — Hippietrail 11:44, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I decided to put Tagálog so that people know how it would be pronounced, rather than writing something such as Tagalog [ta'galog]. Non-Filipinos, particularly Americans, seem to always pronounce it on the first syllable.

The proper name is Tagalog in English and in Tagalog. In Tagalog, acute accents are used but rarely are they placed on the penultimate syllable.

--Chris 16:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Balangay

• La palabra "balangay" no está en el Diccionario. (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?LEMA=balangay&TIPO_HTML=2&FORMATO=ampliado)
• Balangay is not used in Spanish but as a foreign term (meaning catamaran?) (http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=es&q=balangay&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda&lr=lang_es)

Later I see that it is barangay in Philippine Spanish, but it is difficult to know how "genuine" it is (http://www.google.com/search?q=barangay&num=20&hl=es&lr=lang_es&sa=N). I suppose there are Philippine words in World Spanish (tagalo itself) but I don't remember them and don't know if they are from Tagalog or another language. --Error 02:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wish I didn't suggest this barrio word. I just wanted to discuss.. ..It seems that barangay and barrio/ burg have the same ARABIC root but very different paths. I believe the Spanish barrio and Tagalog barangay had no influence or relationship with each other. There are a number of wild coincidences in linguistics. The Japanese word for name is 'namae'.The Hebrew and Arabic words for you is Anta , in Japanese Anatawa. I believe these are coincidences and had no influence on each other. --Jondel 02:51, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Barangay does officially exist (http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual) in Spanish. In the DRAE , click on busque sin diacriticos.--Jondel 07:03, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Remove Binaliktad?

• Remove? Please be bold --Jondel 09:20, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Chabacano

Took out census figures for Caviteno and Ternateno. Ethnologue reports only about 32,000 speakers total for both languages. Highly unlikely they increased to more than 200,000 speakers in 30 years time, considering they're not used as a lingua franca in their native region. Besides, better to report census figure for those languages in their own articles, not in the Tagalog language. --Wng 02:13, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, seems reasonable. But I wonder why such the discrepancy. Did Ethnologue underestimate or did Filipinos who responded to the census overestimate? This is something to take into account for Chabacano article. I'll look into this more. --Chris 04:16, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I personally believe the recent 2000 census in the Philippines overestimated. There's confusion between "ethnic" and "language" group. I believe some people in Cavite identified themselves as Caviteño, even though they don't speak Caviteño. The 2000 census had problems which I documented in the Philippines article, especially with the Cebuano language. The census had different totals for Cebuano, Boholano, Bisaya/Binisaya, etc. when they're in fact the same language. There's also a marked increase in people identifying themselves as Butuanon, Surigaonon, and Davaoeño. People in Butuan City are identifying themselves as Butuanon in the census even if majority of the people there now speak Cebuano as their native language. Same problem with Caviteño and other minority languages. --Wng 06:22, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that. I talked about it in my blog here (http://salitablog.blogspot.com/2004/07/eight-major-languages-no-more.html). BTW, are the statistics available online? I recall they weren't. I have only the DOC file that the NSO sent me. --Chris 13:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The statistics are available online at [1] (http://www.census.gov.ph), but the site is pretty slow (at least for me). You are right, there are some glaring discrepancies in the census. I still can't believe that in a lot of Cebuano-speaking areas in Mindanao, the census will report something like the top three ethnic groups are Bisaya/Binisaya, followed by Cebuano, and then Boholano! They should be counted as one. In places like Cagayan de Oro City, census reports as many as 28% or 114,000 belong to other ethnic groups. What are these other ethnic groups? Are they mestizos or what? I believe there should be difference between "ethnicity" and "language" in the census. One can be ethnic Chinese or mestizo, but lots of them speak the native languages as their mother tongue already. As you mentioned in your blog, there's something wrong with the Tagalog compared to the Cebuano count. In the NCR, there is less than 1% Ilocano and less than 1% Bisaya/Binisaya speakers? I also find this suspicious. --Wng 04:10, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

Tagalog proclaimed national language Dec 30th? or 31st?