Talk:Statism

By the way, when did this article turn into a stub? Looks like a number of people decided they'd rather erase whole paragraphs instead of correcting them. I'll revert to my last edit, from before this mess started, and then we can work from there, alright? - Mihnea Tudoreanu

TDC, why exactly did you erase the article again? If you have a problem with the version I've reverted to, then EDIT IT and let's discuss it - don't massacre the entire article for it! I don't believe this page should be restricted to a mere definition of statism. This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. - Mihnea Tudoreanu

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Yeesh. Ideologues with an agenda are taking over Wikipedia. Funny that.

Frankly, I'm glad for the comments written below: they reveal the mindset of the author of this article. You aren't interested in defining a concept: you're interested in using Wikipedia as a platform to advance your agenda.

Can we please try to be a little more objective in our articles? That would help everyone out: users and editors alike.

Thank you.

I agree, the libertarian rant below says a lot about some people's "objectivity". And just to show this guy how weak his arguments are, I've posted a rebuttal of his rant.

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To find out if you are a statist, ask yourself:

- Is there any human activity that is more efficiently carried out under threats of violence and force than under liberty?

- Is it the case that human beings cannot be trusted to produce milk and bread for the children unless they are threatened with prison terms by "the government?"

- Is it really true that Americans cannot manufacture and distribute computers, clothing, housing, groceries, without "the government?"

- If the government were to be abolished, would entrepreneurs and businessmen make sure that I had access to the best quality at the lowest price?"

If you answer no, for example,

"No, businessmen are greedy and immoral and would only manufacture shoes of low quality and sell them at rip-off prices, unless bureaucrats were regulating them,"

and you added,

"And consumers are stupid, and would always buy low quality at a high price and wouldn't care for their family unless federal bureaucrats were making sure that didn't happen,"

then you have a religious faith in the State and its regulators, and believe that when greedy businessmen and stupid consumers are elected by their greedy and stupid peers to government positions, these human beings suddenly lose their greed and stupidity and become altruistic and intelligent overseers of others. "Statism" is a religious belief in the depravity of human beings and faith in the sanctified state.

Do you actualy even have a job? Have you ever worked for anything more than a coffee shop in your entire life?

Come up with some new criticisms when you stop living in your parents basement. TDC 00:50, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

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Funny that YOU should talk of "dogma" and "religious belief", libertarian. Your kind are the ones who raise the concept of private property to a Godlike status. Your kind are the ones who believe that a businessman is entitled to money that he never worked for, while those who DID work for that money don't have any food to put on the table.

Tell me, is there any human activity that is more efficiently carried out under threats of poverty and starvation than under the guarantee of a decent life?

Is it the case that human beings cannot be trusted to produce milk and bread for the children unless they are threatened with hunger and misery by capitalist bosses? (let's not forget that in a libertarian society, your boss can fire you for any reason - or for no reason whatsoever - and if you're unemployed you'll start going hungry as soon as your savings run out, because there is no such thing as welfare)

Is it really true that American workers cannot manufacture and distribute computers, clothing, housing, groceries, without capitalist parasites (known as "bosses") ordering them around and making a profit off their backs?

And answer me, libertarian, is it not in the "rational self-interest" of entrepreneurs and businessmen to make the highest profit? And is the highest profit not achieved by selling the lowest quality goods they can get away with, for the highest prices they can get away with? Why would a businessman raise the quality of his goods any more than he absolutely NEEDS to? Why would he lower the price any more than he absolutely NEEDS to? And if competition drives quality up and prices down, how long do you think it will be until businessmen realize that they can band together in huge monopolistic corporations?

And as for the State, you seem to have forgotten about that little thing called DEMOCRACY. You think anyone trusts the State's regulators on FAITH? HA! The only reason we trust them is because we know that we can kick them out of office in 4 years' time if they don't do a good job.

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Comment -- Yes, belief in the State (you can call it a valenica orange if you want, but it is still the State) is central to all forms of collectivism.

Define "collectivism". Judging by the root of the word, I'd say "collectivism" has something to do with a collective of some kind. So tell me, when you have an absolute monarch or totalitarian dictator - in other words, an individual - who holds absolute power, how is that "collectivism"? Conversely, when you have a small collective society (an anarchist commune, for example) where all people hold all property in common, but there are no rulers or hierarchy, where is the "state" in this collectivist community? It seems to me that collectivism and the state have little or nothing to do with each other -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, libertarians believe all property belongs to individuals while collectivists (you seem to be one) believe an abstraction (the State) rightfully owns all property.

First of all, you have no basis on which to tell me what I think. I can speak for myself, thank you very much. Second of all, you seem to believe that extremes like "all property belongs to individuals" and "all property belongs to the state" are the only possible options, with no shades of gray in between. That's a ridiculously absolutist view, of the "you either agree with me or you're a Nazi" type. Please get a grip on reality. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In practice, ownership is in the hands of whichever bureaucrats grabbed control of the mechanisms of the State/collective/"common resource"/means of production and theytreat it as personal property.

...which means that such a system cannot be considered "collectivism" of any sort. Thank you for proving my point.

Belief in the virtue of these systems resembles religion quite a lot in that it is held, usually, as a matter of *FAITH*, and unbelievers (such as the above writer) are to be stoned.

Uh, what? Perhaps you've been living under a rock for the past 5000 years, but we have a mountain of historical facts and data about all sorts of societies and all sorts of states. Nobody simply "believes in the virtue" of a certain system without supporting evidence and logical arguments (at least I hope nobody does, but you libertarians come pretty damn close). Also, you're doing the "you either agree with me or you're a Nazi" thing again. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The State is humanity's savior to these people, and any failures in people are the result of "capitalist roaders" (to use an old socialist phrase).

So, in your view, anyone who doesn't agree with you (and your belief that the State is an evil scourge which must be obliterated) must automatically believe that "the State is humanity's savior"? Are you aware of the existence of any other possibilities besides total anarchy and complete totalitarianism? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To understand Statism is really rather simple, although there are many flavors. Simply substitute The State for God in almost any religion and you will have an analog to some form of Statism. It is a belief that bureaucracy breeds virtue, in and of itself, and is the True Path.

The above (just like all other things that person has posted) is the perfect example of a Straw Man fallacy. First he imagines an enemy ("Statism" as a real ideology, rather than the vague term it is in reality), he builds up that enemy the way he would like it to be, then tears down this imagined enemy. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Statism has killed more people in the past 100 years than you could dream of. Just think -- all of those "liberated" "virtuous" Russians, Cambodians, Jews, Gypsies, Tutsis. Mass graves are found only in "worker's paradise" systems. All collective States crush someone. That is their reason for being. Taking care of the common man??? Jeez. Go to Moscow and try to sell that tripe.

Actually, there's no need to dream. We have body count statistics to rely on. And although the estimates may vary somewhat, most historians put the total number of people who were killed "by the government" during the 20th century (including the victims of all wars and tyrants) at between 150 and 200 million. That's nothing compared to the total number of people who lived and died during the 20th century. There were 6 billion people alive at the end of the century alone, and many more lived and died during the century itself.

And, of course, "worker's paradise" systems have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of common graves are found in - you guessed it - war zones. The remaining mass graves are found in just about any system you can think of - including some of the most diehard anti-communists and anti-collectivists (i.e. fascists and nazis), and some of the most diehard individualists (mass graves were a common way to bury poor workers in the laissez-faire capitalist systems of the 19th century).

Also, incidentally, mass murders tend to happen where the state has little or no authority, too. You mentioned an example yourself: the Tutsis of the Rwandan Genocide.

And finally, for your information, I have actually been to Moscow. In the working-class neighborhoods, every person you meet curses the regime of the past 15 years and dreams of getting the Soviet Union back. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 question 2 Deleting content from the article 3 Morality of Statism 4 Social contract 5 NPOV

question

How is pure democracy statist?AndyL 17:38, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Pure democracy, as in the Greek sense, is majority rule correct? A pure majority rule can place deny rights to minorities by a simple vote. Correct me if I am mistaken here. TDC 17:48, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

So? Using similar logic, you may conclude that Anarchy is "statist" since it does not believe in the mythical concept that human rights somehow exist independently of the will of the people. Hell, by the libertarian definition, "statism" means anything that doesn't conform to libertarian dogma - no matter if the "statist" system in question actually has a state or not. - Mihnea Tudoreanu

Depends? Left wing (Marxist) anarchism would most certainly be statist but right wing anarchism would be the furthest thing form statism. TDC 23:19, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

You, sir, need to study a lot more history and political theory. Since when is left-wing anarchism "Marxist"? Poor Bakunin would be turning in his grave! And I wish to remind you that anarchists (I mean left-wing anarchists, because they appeared over 100 years before the silly idea of "right-wing anarchism" was ever taken into consideration) utterly DESPISE the state, and that their entire political theory is centered on opposition to authority - and therefore opposition to the state. Calling anarchists "statist" is not only ridiculously inaccurate, it's just plain idiotic.

Since private property is a form of authority, anarchists oppose it just as much as they oppose the state. In your so-called right-wing "anarchism", any man who owns a piece of land effectively becomes "the state" over that piece of land. Right-wing "anarchism" is, in fact, just another name for feudalism - there is no central authority to speak of, while the land is divided into millions of tiny little private "states". Just like feudal lords, right-wing "anarchist" property owners would have unlimited dictatorial powers over their domain.

- Mihnea Tudoreanu

Just like feudal lords, right-wing "anarchist" property owners would have unlimited dictatorial powers over their domain.

Now whats the operative word in that statement which shreds your point?

powers over their domain

They have no power over anyone who does not freely choose to enter their zone of authority. TDC 00:42, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

Right back at you - The state also does not have any power over anyone who does not freely choose to enter the state's zone of authority.

What's that you say? What happens if people are born within a state's area of authority? Well, what happens if people are born within a right-wing anarchist's area of private property?

Also, notice that you can't really "choose" not to live under a state, since the entire surface of the Earth is divided between states. Similarly, in right-wing anarchism, you can't really "choose" not to live under an anarcho-feudal lord, since the entire surface of the Earth is divided between anarcho-feudal lords.

And when someone claims X thing to be his private property, you should always ask yourself whether his claim is legitimate, before blindly defending his "property rights". Medieval kings claimed entire countries as their private property. Slave owners claimed human beings as their private property.

- Mihnea Tudoreanu

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Well, something said that makes sense. The trouble is that nasty word "Left" which misleads and corrupts. There is no difference of "right" and "left" in anarchism. It is a meaningless distinction introduced by Statists. "We have your best interests at heart! So obey you slime."

[sarcasm] Riiiight, because, as we all know, everyone who isn't an anarchist supports a totalitarian police state. [/sarcasm] -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most countries *OWN* people -- you are CALLED a citizen, but you are more like a cow to the State. You need to be milked for the benefit of ... the State. Private property must be maintained by main force, just as collective property must. Anarchism brings disorganized violence, while Statism keeps better records of their violent acts.

I guess you have been living under a rock for the past 5000 years - and missed the development of those things called human rights and democracy. Why don't you go visit Somalia? There's no State to "milk" you there... -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I realize that anarchist think that anarchy is such an involved and deep philosophy, but its basically the product of kids who did not get enough discipline when growing up, and realizing that aint the real world. TDC 00:42, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

Not that I necessarely disagree with you, but do you realize how ignorant and stupid you sound? If you want to refute a certain political theory, then do so with arguments, not silly ad hominem rants. And while I certainly agree that Randites are idiotic, there is a very big difference between them and classical (left-wing) libertarians and anarchists. Read some Proudhon or Bakunin and you'll see what true anarchists are all about. Nowadays they don't make 'em like they used to...

- Mihnea Tudoreanu

That reminds me of a film I saw a few years ago on followers of Ayn Rand. Its thesis was that Randites specifically and Libertarians in general suffered from arrested development and were stuck in the self-centred mindset most people grow out of by the age of 16 (coincidentally, Ayn Rand books are most popular with people in their early teens). AndyL 00:48, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

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Andy, the reason I object with putting criticisms into this article is because it is a definition, not a subject. It would be like criticizing Marxist theory on the Proletariat (arguing the practical meaninglessness of the proletariat) or dialectic pages (which is a can of worms no one wants to open), when clearly criticism of Marxism belongs on the Marxism page, just as criticisms of libertarianism belongs on its respective page. TDC 18:20, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well then take out the Libertarian propagada. AndyL 18:29, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

NP TDC 18:49, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

I've added monarchism, colonialism and imperialism to the list. AndyL

Deleting content from the article

Should this article be a page-long overview of the concept of statism (A good article and NPOV, as far as I can tell) or a 4-sentence definition? Is there a reason you keep deleting most of the content from the page, TDC? Rhobite 23:11, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the discussion that's currently there is particularly helpful. There must be a better (NPOV name) article where this discussion can be placed, which in the long run will lead to a better discussion, and "Statism" just be a description of the term and its usage. Rd232 18:38, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, "Statism" is a pejorative term; nobody self-identifies as a supporter of statism (even if some end up defending it when opponents insist on using the term). A comparison with "capitalism" (RJII) is silly. Capitalism is an incredibly well-established and fairly-well-defined term used very widely across the social sciences; and there are plenty of people who self-identify as supporters of capitalism. Neither is true of "statism", which is well-established only as a pejorative term. Rd232 18:38, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Statism" is not a "pejorative term." Some just use it pejoratively at times in the same way people use "socialist" or "communist" pejoratively. If you're not familiar with seeing "capitalist" used pejoratively, take a trip to some of the more socialist-leaning countries in Europe and talk to the leftists. RJII 19:12, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A "pejorative term" is one that is only (or very predominantly) used pejoratively. Statism fits the bill. Capitalism does not. Of course the latter can be used pejoratively as well, but that's different from being a "pejorative term". Rd232 19:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Calling it a pejorative term is a biased statement on your part in an apparent attempt to dissuade people from using the word. The word represents a real concept. Whether people want to use it pejoratively or not is their decision. But there is nothing intrinsically pejorative about it. Many people do advocate centralized economic planning by the state. Whether all of them realize it or not, there is a word for that. RJII 19:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Groan. It's a simple statement of fact that "statism" is a pejorative term, if it's only used by opponents of the idea - which I believe is the case and you've not substantially denied. Whether the term can be reclaimed at some point in the future to also be used by supporters of it (like "queer") is neither here nor there. (The way it is used by opponents - see some of the ranting up the Talk page - suggests this is unlikely.) It is currently a pejorative term. Which, BTW, says nothing about the validity or otherwise of what the term describes. Rd232 19:55, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Many people do speak against statism and denounce it vehemently (same for the term "communism"), but I don't think that given that, that it logically follows that term itself is a pejorative. I think you're mistakingly making a leap of logic to conclude that. RJII 20:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is to your point about the term only being used by opponents of the idea. It's not true. I just did a quick search in google, and some guy says "As a rather ambivalent fellow towards democracy and an advocate of statism and centralized authority, I can still see the merits of the American balance." It's at http://blog.marmot.cc/archives/2004/11/08/i-voted-for-bush-but/ if you want to verify that. RJII 20:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And there is no shortage examples where it's not used as a "pejorative" but merely to describe economic systems. RJII 01:02, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Show, don't tell. I haven't seen any cases where "statism" is used neutrally or positively by someone who is not a clear opponent of it. Rd232 01:09, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Articles are not that hard to find. Here's some just from a quick look with Google:

• [1] (http://business.baylor.edu/Tom_Kelly/Who%20Now%20Controls%20the%20Commanding%20Heights.htm)
• [http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:wDGjXSa0lPgJ:www.ciaonet.org/olj/cato/v23n2/cato_v23n2mbj01.pdf+%22statism%22&hl=en
• [2] (http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/oct98o.html)

I could go on and on. Look up uses of the word yourself. Someone having an opinion on whether statism is good or bad is not the same thing as saying that "statism" is a pejorative. Like any political stance, if you look up the term, mostly what you're going to find is people making value judgements on whether it is good or bad. Not suprisingly, most commentary on statism is why the writers think it's bad. But does that make the term a pejorative? I don't think so. I put up a book on the web page called "The Ideal of Statism" from someone who thinks it's good. The only reason I can fathom that you want the article to say statism is a pejorative is because you're biased against capitalism, you don't like the word "statism" and want to give the impression that it's biased so it can't be used in discussions of economic systems. Again, don't equate opposition to "statism" as meaning that "statism" is a pejorative. That's quite a leap. RJII 01:58, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

One of your links is the Cato institute; another, the NCPA ("The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control..."); the third is a review of book described as "no less credible and instructive for the unconcealed commitment of its authors to market principles". All three must be considered opponents of "statism". "The Ideal of Statism" was written in 1968 in Urdu. We are not talking about the meaning of "statism" in other languages 40 years ago. Rd232 10:28, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As I've said before, the word "statism" is only used by people who are in favour of a strongly free market economy and want to paint an economy with more intervention than this as "statist". People who support a greater role for government do not use the term. This is not because they are not prepared to defend the concept (eg social contract and human rights and the need for regulation because of firms' market power) but because they are not interested in adopting a term coined and used by opponents. QED - it is a pejorative term, because it is only used by opponents. Rd232 10:28, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is the term "centralized economic planning" a pejorative too? You're going to be just as hard-pressed to find a lot of people saying they believe in "centralized economy planning" as well. People just aren't much into it anymore. Just fact that there aren't a lot of people around who say they are into "centralized economic planning" or "statism" doesn't equate with those terms being pejoratives. Again, I think it's an irrational leap you're making.

So? Statism lumps a vast range of economic/political approaches together, ranging from "centralised economic planning" to market economies with government regulation. Rd232 22:59, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For it to be statism it has to be a significant amount of planning, whereas in capitalism such planning is not significant in contrast to the overwhelming amount of economic freedom of the system, which is why they're opposites. But yes, it does "lump together" a lot systems and that's exactly why the term is useful, but so does "planned economy." Whenever you can have a term that is a broader classification it helps communication. Pretty much anything that isn't statism is going to be capitalism. "Statism" sums up everything supporters of capitalism are against, but that doesn't make the term a pejorative. RJII 23:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The lumping together is pejorative, just as if I invented a term to lump together libertarians and muppets (muppetarians?) and then used constantly, it would be a pejorative term I wouldn't expect libertarians (or muppets) to adopt. And why are European economies frequently described as "statist"? Rd232 09:08, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If they have a relatively large amount of government-intervention in the economy then are statist. If they don't then they're not. There's always the possibility of someone mislabeling. At some point of liberalizing an economy it starts becoming capitalist. Where is that point? It can be a matter of subjectivity. For example, extreme free market advocates would not even grant that the market is free enough for the US to properly be called capitalist. There is a continuum from capitalism, through mixed economy, through statism. Just as there are arguments whether particular nations are statism, so there are arguments whether a situation can rightfully be called capitalism. Why not put a section in there called "Which economies are statist?" like in the Capitalism article called "Which economies are capitalist?" if it's a concern?

I don't give a flying monkey's which nations are labelled which. The issue is the label itself. "Statism" is not the opposite of capitalism except among US "free market advocates". Rd232 10:58, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Morality of Statism

This section seems to be a ridiculously protracted attempt by someone trying to morally justify statism. Considering this, I think the article is weighted too much toward the morality of statism over practical justification for it.

It's not even about statism - it's about the nature of society and (implicitly) the state. As I said before, this whole discussion isn't appropriate here; but I'm not sure exactly where it should go. People who use the term "statism", of course, aren't likely to make helpful suggestions on this point... Rd232 19:59, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should just wipe it out. RJII 21:44, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Social contract

Why was the social contract paragraph removed from this article? It's relevant, and should be replaced. Rhobite 04:47, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

See the above section "Morality of Statism" for a little discussion on that. I think it was too far out of the scope of "statism" and rambled on too long. So I think I condensed what might have been important into the one paragraph. Even then, it still seems inappropriate to me. Seems like a discussion of this type should focus a little more on economics at least. RJII 03:07, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article violates the principle of NPOV. The paragraph on "Support and Criticisms of Statism" contains only criticism. The paragraph on "Discussion on the Morality of Statism" contains only a few words about the arguments of supporters of statism, but ample explanations of the arguments of anti-statists.