Talk:Spirituality
From Academic Kids
One of the comments is 'Those given to describing of their spiritual beliefs in terms of "spirituality" rather than "religion" are apt to believe that there are many "spiritual paths" and that there is no objective truth about which is the best path to follow. ' This deceptive statement occludes an important point: if you have specificly defined spiritual goals then some paths will be more effective than others in catalyzing you to attain those goals. The factors relate to the seeker, the goals and the path, path leader and path environment. Moral relativism is not the same as the 'objectivity' and 'being real' taught by spiritual traditions. M.T.
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Is there a problem with "Spirituality" being "incomprehensible"?
User:duncharris said: "Although an atheist may well be able to follow Subud, I have never heard of [t]he term, and it appears to be religious/spiritual, and uses the same incomprehensible gobledegook [sic]."
Duncharris’ sentence is a bit ambiguous, but I'll assume that he is saying that words used to describe spiritual matters are incomprehensible. Indeed, they may be! But, most worthwhile endeavors are difficult or impossible to comprehend:
The singularity (of the Big Bang) is incomprehensible because the curvature of spacetime was infinite, so physical law and time as we know it did not exist; Infinity is incomprehensible, a fortiori different types of infinities are incomprehensible; Infinity can be demonstrated in a proof, but it still makes no sense to our understanding; The proof that the number of natural numbers is equal to the number of EVEN natural numbers is incomprehensible. Again, we can demonstrate the proof but it’s not satisfying to the understanding; Time dilation, many ramifications of E=mc(2), some behavior of muons, and the notion of electrons “traveling around” a nucleus (related to Heisenberg uncertainty)--it’s all incomprehensible. It is possible for a “tear” to open up in our space time in the vicinity of our Local Group, and “another” Big Bang would happen—an entirely different universe (likely with different physical laws) would spread destroying spacetime as it goes (not “replacing” space, but actually destroying spacetime itself). This means another dimension would “open up” within our dimension, at least temporarily. Of course, by “temporarily” is meant thousands of years, until our spacetime and everything associated with it was destroyed when the explosion reached us. Currently physics says that communication with this new universe would be “impossible” but most of quantum theory is “impossible” from Aristotelian/Newtonian principles). "Non-locality" is currently incomprehensible (classical physics assumes change/effect only by direct physical contact, yet non-locality denies this stricture). Varying c (speed of light)(or VSL theory) makes little sense in terms of relativity theory. Matter is mostly space rather than “solid” as common sense would have it. Chaos theory, inflationary theory, the Lambda problem, Inflation’s so-called solution to the Lambda problem, Bohm’s implicate order, quantum states “jumping” up to the atomic level (this has already been used to explain behavior in some bacteria), etc., etc.,—all this stuff makes little sense to our understanding. Yet it is either currently actual, or has strong theoretical grounds. While humanity currently has the most amazing bank of knowledge in human history, it’s also true that “incomprehensibility” is a cornerstone of the universe, and given the scope of Epistemology it will remain so.
Regarding Spirituality, some people have access to more subtle forms of physical energy, but it’s only physical energy nonetheless—it’s not some mysterious “supernatural mystic vision.” Some people claim it’s that out of ignorance. But that doesn’t mean that some persons cannot sense outside normal boundaries. I don’t want to get too reductionist, but for sake of explanation I’ll say that what we now call spiritual experience will someday be explained. Maybe not completely explained, but explained enough to give it credence to most thinking people (many accepted theories in physics are only partly explained—theories have “lives,”—big bang cosmology, inflation, etc.). Maybe spiritual experience is a bleed-over from other (physical) dimensions, or from an implicate order, or maybe it’s direct prehension from quantum states (although it’s true that quantum theory currently says that useful information can’t travel non-locally). Or, spiritual experience may be enhanced sense perception. (That is, the five senses don’t open the world to us, rather they may cut us off from reality. Those with enhanced senses would have been quickly selected out of the population by evolution—how can you hunt and gather with continual influxes of irrelevant data coming into your consciousness, even if that data is actual states of affairs in the world? Some of that ability, or vestiges of it, was retained, however, because some people have the ability that animals do, to sense barometric pressure, etc.). Our knowledge of human sense perception and neurology, which is bound up with the issue of “spirituality,” is in it’s infancy.
Energy and matter are the same thing but just in a different states. Everything may be reduced to energy or experience (“experience” as used here is not to be confused with “consciousness,” as the latter is something very different). At the quantum level there is a continual exchange of energy—photonic energy. On some level every interaction of one object with another object is “recorded.” Interaction between objects leaves some kind of energy-impression (call it “data”), either locally or non-locally or both, in one or both affected objects. True, we can only access a fraction of that data in the 21st century (e.g., the object's color, a mark left on it from a collision with another object in the past, evidence that it has sat in the sun or weather for years, radioactive properties, etc.), but given enough time and development we’ll be able to prehend or access much more of this data. Some people claim to have a more developed intuitive sense and claim that they can access it, but they really cannot. In other words, yes, there are charlatans in the world. But, other people claim they are able to access this energy, and they are correct. Energy may be sensed by human beings—human beings may receive data and if they have trouble classifying this data in common or worldly terms, then they resort to a “spiritual” explanation. Spirituality may be defined as real experience that doesn’t fit into neat and easy categories.
The universe is a complex place. I wish the universe were nice and neat—well-defined, easily, clearly, and completely referenced. I wish I could close my mind to what we’re calling “spiritual” today, and relegate it all “gobbledygook.” Tossing a label on something and denying it wholesale is the work of radicals (at both ends of the spectrum) and it’s the easy way out. (Of course, this doesn’t mean we accept everything either—astrology and many things “metaphysical,” in the non-academic sense, are probably best classified as nonsense, or at least as very dubious.) The radical Evolutionists will continue to fight the radical Creationists, and since they both only have a tiny picture of the whole, they’ll fight to no avail, and continue to close themselves off from the larger picture. The most difficult and treacherous path, but the most rewarding one, is to tread in the middle between the Creationists and the Evolutionists, taking ALL evidence seriously (i.e., if you’re going to be radical, then be a “radical” empiricist, and take all experience seriously, even “spiritual” experience). There’s plenty of room in (what we today call) “material science” for (what we today call) “spirituality.” It’s all the same: supernaturalism is nonsense—there’s only nature. The more of nature you study, the more open and synoptic you become. Socrates’ attitude (from the oracle) sums it up best, after all. Aliman 11:09, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Esotericism & New Age
Spirituality is a broad topic, with many applications of the word. It is an aspect of just about any religious or meditative pursuit that doesn't involve having illicit sex with or making piles of money off of the parishioners. It doesn't have to be esotericised into an occult pursuit. This article had a too rarefied approach to the word, IMO, which I hope to have remedied with my modest additions. You'll notice that I didn't take anything out. New Agers and Jesuits can argue all day about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but spiritual experience is an everyday occurence for many and therefore common to almost every traditional religious group's worldview. Fire Star 20:44, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Everyday usage of the word "spiritual"
Can someone comment on everyday usage of the word spiritual, e.g.
"3. (of the mind etc.) refined, sensitive; not concerned with the material."
as defined in Oxford English Dictionary, or
"4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with the higher things in life"
as defined in MSN Encarta.
These have nothing to do with religion (or with spirituality as defined here) - e.g. I could say I am both spiritual (in the sense "refined") and an atheist. Btw, I am not a native English speaker, so I don't know if the usage of the word in this context is much common in English as it is in some European languages. Thanks.
- The dictionary definition of "spiritual" belongs in a different wiki, Wiktionary, a sister project of Wikipedia. User:Rdsmith4/Sig 23:48, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Scientific Spirituality
"Tossing a label on something and denying it wholesale is the work of radicals (at both ends of the spectrum) and it’s the easy way out... The most difficult and treacherous path, but the most rewarding one, is to tread in the middle between [beliefs]."
I concur. It is always more difficult to deny people their truth, to keep an open mind, to walk a path that is neither black nor white. Spirituality is based in personal experience. Use the scientific method: experiment. Try someone's theory. If it does not work after repeated attempts, perhaps their beliefs are wrong, or at least wrong for you.
Sprirtuality is concerned with this world and not the next. It requires results for the experimenter. That is one of the main differences between spirituality and religion. However, spirtuality is not magic. Magic grants control over the universe. Spirituality grants understanding and acceptance--serenity amid chaos. --Franketh 01:02, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why the infobox?
It doens't seem to add anything to the article and the layout is pretty bad. Please consider removing it.
