Talk:Sami people
From Academic Kids
Why not a separate article for Northern Indigenous peoples? -- Zoe
- Good plan. Not today, though! GrahamN 21:12 Aug 29, 2002 (PDT)
- Not sure. I got the term Northern Indigenous Peoples (best not to turn it into an acronym, I just discovered!), and the list of tribes, from [this article (http://www.survival-international.org/tc%20siberia.htm)] from [Survival International (http://www.survival-international.org)], a respected and long established authroity on the subject of indigenous tribal peoples. GrahamN 21:34 Aug 29, 2002 (PDT)
80.141.119.26 (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=80.141.119.26) removed the link to Siberia, saying "There are no Saami in Siberia, but on the Kola peninsula in northern Russia". However, two separate sources cited in the article state that the Saami ARE indigenous to Siberia (http://www.buryatmongol.com/sibnative.html and http://survival-international.org/tc%20siberia.htm). I will add Siberia back in pending an explanation from 80.141.119.26. GrahamN 23:11 24 May 2003 (UTC)
Is there any serious thinking that Saami are related to Vedic traditions in India? Or is this a way-out theory? Rmhermen 04:39 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I have never heard it. This is pure folk etymology. I think this should be deleted from the entry unless someone has a reference for it. Evertype 15:59, 2004 Apr 22 (UTC)
This sound very far fetched. Tourists visiting the Sami area are often more interested in trying to make connections to far-away peoples in Asia and North America (or Bolivia...as some told me..), than actually study the unique culture at hand. So forget about vedic traditions, unless you have solid proof.
There seems to be an arithmetical conflict regarding the Saami population of Norway, between the Norway page and the Saami one. Saami says: The population of about 85,000 ... Roughly half the Saami population lives in Norway (so that would be 40000 ish). But Norway says ...Saami people (about 6000 people. Source: Samemanntallet).. I don't know if this due to the difference between those who are ethnically Saami and those who speak Saami, or some "registered Saami" issue, or if it's just a matter of the wording needing tightening-up somewhere. Still, the two pages (as they read right now) seem to directly contradict one another. -- Finlay McWalter 17:52, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The number 40 000 in Norway is an estimate. Norway undoubtedly has the largest number of Sami, but in coastal areas of Norway, it is hard to distinguish Sami from Norwegians, since the present Norwegians have a great deal of Sami ancestry, and the present Sami are much more assimilated into Norwegian culture than the ones in inland areas. The present number of 11 000 people registered in the samemanntallet are the ones who have declared themselves Sami, a voluntary thing. Teh others may or may not regard themselves as Sami, and quite a few are fluent in Sami language, without referring to themselves as Sami. This is because it is still a social stigma in rural coastal areas to be a Sami. Today many people "step out of the closet" as Sami, so the gap between the estimate of 40 000 and the number declared in the samemanntallet is narrowing.
The various estimates concerning the Sami vary enormously, so any number should be taken with a pinch of salt.
This article claims that jojks are known in English as yoicks. My source spells it joiks and gives no other transliterations (though it does mention the North Saami luohti and the South Saami vuolle). Googling indicates that joiks is the most common, but yoicks gives virtually no hits (can't tell for sure how many, because there seem to be other uses of the word). I can only find one page in English which uses yoicks to refer to this[1] (http://parisvoice.com/01/nov/html/music.cfm). Can anybody clear this up?
Tuf-Kat 20:43, Dec 14, 2003 (UTC)
The name in Sami is juoiggus, and this word has a separate Norwegian adaptation; "joik", and a similar Swedish one "jojk". A word starting with "j" in Sami, Norwegian or Swedish, is pronounced "y". An exampel is "jul" (Christmas), which is also used in English as "yule", the pronunciation is exactly the same. The average English speaker is probably unaware of this, so spelling "juoiggus/joik/jojk" as "yoik" in English probably makes English speakers pronounce the word correctly.
I have also seen the inhabitants of Lapland referred to as "Laps". Is this a misspelling of "Lapps", or is it valid? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:03, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
The words Laps and Lapland have been used extensively, especially in Sweden and Finland (and in countries outside the Sami area) historically. In Norway one would often call the Sami "Finn" (a term that you still hear sometimes), although Lap was also heard. However, with the increased respect for Sami identity, we today prefer to say Sami. And their ancestral lands are hence called Sàpmi.
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It's Sami not Saami
The best English term for this population is "Sami". This reflects the native designation "Sápmi" (where -pm- is a grade of -m-; Sámi is a declined form of this). The Norwegian/Swedish designation is "samisk". The spelling "Saami" is a Finnicism (Finnish "saami"); since most Sami live in Norway, it makes sense to borrow a Germanic spelling into English rather than a Finnic one. Further, the spelling "Saami" risks hypercorrection to "Såmi" (cf. Haakon/Håkon, Aarhus/Århus). The New Oxford Dictionary of English gives "Sami" on page 1644. "Saami" does not occur there. The term "Saami" is attested; a google search will certainly find it. But it is not the recommended form in English. Evertype 16:00, 2004 Apr 22 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing this up. But are you sure that it is a finnicism, though? I would suppose that it is likely to be a rendition of the acute accent in Sámi in 7-bit ASCII. arj 21:51, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The people in question have had some difficulties to unite on what the best transliteration to English should be, and there is no reason to believe that this issue is finally concluded. You can find representatives who argue against Sámi for it being too difficult for Americans who panic for accents, against Saami for being too difficult for Indo-Europeans who don't know how to handle vowel-length, against Sami for beeing too close to the more "oppressive" or more alien Germanic nations (compared to the akin Finno-Ugric or Finnic, and again against Sami as it more likely renders an unwished distorted English pronounciation.
I don't know what to do in Wikipedia, but one thing is clear. The statement "the spelling "Saami" is found but is a Finnicism" can not remain where it's inserted. Wikipedia-article usually do not in the first sentence argue in controversies. Further, it's a peculiar and strange assertation, as the languages of this people really are Finno-Ugric, why a scandinavism ought to be more out of place than a finnicism. Finally, the only name which Wikipedia ought to take a clear stand against, based on the sentiments in the people in question, is the "Lapp" term, by many considered particularly offensive. The first-sentence stance against Saami is thus unfortunate, as it might give the impression of Wikipedia not taking the reservations against Lapp- as serious as against "Finnicisms".
/Tuomas 06:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Do you mean we should remove all forms of "Lapp(ish)" from the article? Lapp(onia) is something that have been used, at least from the Carta Marina since 1539 to ~1990. //Rogper 22:21, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
- Not at all, but we shouldn't give the usage prominence. /Tuomas 20:31, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I am sure that the -aa- is a Finnicism, yes.
- ...or Samiism... :-) /Tuomas 20:31, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
There's no reason to use -aa- in English while -a- is used in Norwegian.
- The issue is exactly this. Should the indigenous people be shown respect — or their Germanic masters? /Tuomas 20:31, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Oxford (which one can consider to be authoritative) prefers Sami. Tuomas' point about not bothering with the word "Finnicism" is well-taken. "Sami" rhymes with "swami" in English, by they way. Same spelling, same sound. "Saami" just isn't right.
- The Sami Parlament (http://www.sametinget.se/sametinget/view.cfm?oid=1009&changeUserconf_syslanguage=1), Sametinget, uses "Sami" on their homepage. I've been using Sami (=singular Same, plural Samer in Swedish) or Samic (=Samisk in Swedish). // Rogper 22:13, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
- They do this year, yes. I don't care much about which transcription to use, but as information the first vowel is (should be) rather close to, but not quite as, English arm, SAMPA /A:/, or maybe rather as a long version of the sound in cup, SAMPA /sV:mI/. Swami is maybe a better approximation than Slavic. The way my Arabic teacher pronounces Ba'ath is even closer. However, some sound distinction get lost in the transfer to other languages, that can't be avoided. /Tuomas 20:31, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
In Sami, Sami is spelt Sàmi. Accents are hard and difficult to many. Why not simply say Sami, and leave out all the rest? This is a direct Sami-English adaptation, not via Norwegian/Swedish or Finnish.
germanic? scythian?
"Sami People are a group of Germanic and Scythian tribes"...
I have grave doubts that the above is not at all correct.
Sami language is indisputedly known of being a Finnic language. Not germanic, nor scythian (who also probably were indoeuropean).
(Sami old religion and culture is known to be close with finnic shamanism.)
The above should be altered: Sami people are a group of Finnic tribes, or something like that. Germanic and scythian taken away. 213.243.157.114 21:32, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I think it was unclear where the Sami first come from, although they nowadays speak a Finnic language. It seems that this could have been, because of close contact with Finnic tribes in some way, though.
Sami: governmental definitions
The Organization section can be confusing to read. It's not clear on who can vote where if certain operational criteria are met. Splitting along state lines may improve it. A-giau 18:50, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It also seems to suggest there's a united, transnational Sami Parliament when there are in fact several, with rather different powers. A-giau 18:52, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Official status
It'd be nice to have some information on official status or official recognition (perhaps described along state lines), and a bit of details about the implications. Info on related social movements would be appreciated, as well. A-giau 19:03, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Is Lapp derogatory?
There seems to be quite some controverse about the name Lapp: It is said to be offending and derogatory. On the other hand, almost anyone not involved in ethnological affairs uses the word. I would like to know: If Lapp is considered an insult, doea the word have a specific meaning (Like "Eskimo" meening "raw meat eater" in a Cree dialect), and are all Sami offended by the name Lapp. Btw, why do I want to know this? Because I am to write an article on the Sami and their language on the Limburgic Wikipedia. Caesarion 10:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It means "patch", as in "bums in patched clothes". If someone uses the term, he's simply ignorant of this. --Vuo 11:27, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
