Talk:Royal Prussia
From Academic Kids
Dear user 66.47.62.78,
- There was no such thing as West Prussia during the period described in the article.
- 13 Years War had nothing to do with Reformation or religious wars - it was a war between two catholic states.
- I was using only very detailed German maps as a source.
- I happen to know that you have a bitmap version of that map in your possesion (Bonus Folder), so feel free to edit my map and replace it (we haven't had a map war on the Wikipedia, yet).
- Is it really important who the peace treaty was recognized by, as long as it was recognized by the two fighting sides?
- Why don't we discuss drastic changes on the "Talk" page before implementing them?
Space Cadet 15:41, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Answers to S.C. 1. West Prussia is only what it has always been before: the western part of Prussia. 2. 13 Years War had everything to do with Religion or religious wars and the (following) Reformation. Jan Hus was a forerunner of the Reformation. Things don't happen in a day. The two or several catholic cities, states -War of the Cities- of Prussia were in 1525 to become Evangelic (Protestant) eastern Prussia (later called East Prussia) and western Prussia (later called West Prussia) which partially held on to Catholic religion. Ermland- Warmia became a Fuerst-Bistum, Imperial Prince Bishopric, therefore remained a Catholic island surrounded by protestant eastern Prussia.
Catholic Crown of Poland , king Casimir IV and queen did aid Prussian Confederation, the forerunners of the later Protestant Prussians. Was Casimir IV Polish? No- he was Lithuanian (Jagiellones) and his wife, the Queen of Poland,was Elisabeth Habsburg, the Mother of the Jagiellones. So how is that for irony ? A Catholic Habsburg Queen, granddaughter of an HRR (Holy Roman Emperor ( and relative- daughter ? of an HHR emperor (Albrecht)aiding a (future) Protestant Prussia. Ninety percent of the empire, Germany, large parts of Europe had become Protestant, when the Counter-Reformation hit. The dear sweat Jesuits came to convince the rest.
(personal note: My grandmother, brought up staunchly Catholic in Silesia, in her old age, told me that she would rather change over to Evangelism. But for her it was a (Catholic) sin, to even think like that)
One needs to understand the struggle of the Religions (first the enforced Christianizations, later Counter-Reformations) then developement of the first Protestant State in Europe- in the World (1525 Prussia under Albrecht of Brandenburg-Prussia). If that is not understood then all personal freedom here or anywhere else in the world is not understood.
3. Nothing against your nice looking maps. I know, that you like to make them up. It does serve the purpose for the current younger inhabitants of the land to get familiar with the fact that their towns had different names previously, a fact dilligently withheld from them by the communists.
That this has changed since the demise of the communists to the positive, is clear to me by the photo from the Warsaw highschool classroom for German language with the poster on the wall : Ich (heart) liebe Berlin. Show that photo to wikipedians who constantly want to harp on the Polish/German German/Polish wars only.
From day one at wiki I wanted to show the family relations of the people of the countries in Europe. That is a much more important topic on how Europe was governed for the last 1000 years. But the family relations are always put aside, belittled, badmouthed by several wikipedians as unimportant and worse. However -it is just as important a point to show the Queens , Duchesses Margravesses and whatever of a country as well, because often the females had a very important role and kept the country going. (I am not a women's libber, so don't get me wrong). But I come from an Old European system, where male and female had an equal balance (other countries call it: Jin and Jang). When Professor Marija Gimbutas in her books pointed out the Old European value system, before the arrival of the people who live by the sword, she was immediately attacked by the Industrial-Military Complex in USA. I kept the newspaper article. See a pattern ?
I condensed a number of factual Maps of Prussia from throughout the centuries. 20/21th century interpretations are just that, not real, not showing the circumstances at the time-several centuries ago. For facts go to the primary sources, not interpretations.
4. On the bit map(s) . I do not want to edit your bit maps. I see so many 20/21th century interpretation maps, also 19th century ones and it seems that in those interpretation maps, by not looking at a real map from the actual time period, ly a large number of 20th century world problems, created by people who did not really look at facts, but rather created interpretations in order to gain profits.
5. Treaty of Thorn is -yes- important, that it was not recognized by the emperor nor the pope. They both held the official titles to Prussia (Golden Bulla of Rimini- Emperor, Golden Bulla of Rieti- Pope).
Reminds me of another point I am consistently pounting out a wiki- The Feudal Lien or Loan system.
(again a personal note: my mother-in-law from Elbing in (West and East) Prussia: Es ist alles nur geliehen, auf dieser schoenen Welt... (Everything is only on loan- in this beautiful world...)
so Space Cadet- yes, here I sit discussing with you my points. I do not mind discussing with you. But it takes a lot of time and I have spend w a y too much time discussing on wikipedia. I do not have t h a t much time and the great problem is on wikipedia, one gets constantly attacked (this seems to be better right now) and/or it gets constantly messed up again, that is, there is so much false, misleading and inaccurate information on wikipedia articles, which gets multiplied numerous times by a bunch of copycats, who all use wikipedia for their little websites.They do not show the updated version, nore the disclaimers and thus Wikipedia is therefore the source of Mass-Dis-Information. I therefore devised the advisory note to keep me from endless unfruitful debates.
Gotta have Love Gotta go-loveya- Tantchen
1 "Always" - meaning since 1308 Teutonic Knights invasion of Polish Pomerania, because before that there was no single Prussian in Gdansk (Danzig) or Bydgoszcz (Bromberg). Also West Prussia is a name of a province with very well defined borders, not some unspecified western side of Prussia. And that province just did not exist during Royal Prussia times.
2 Prussians were all catholic during 13 Years war. They became protestant 80 years later (roughly 3 generations) because of the rule "cuius regio, eius religio" not because of their own choice. I don't buy the "forerunners of the later Protestant Prussia". It's like calling Teutonic Knights "forerunners of the later (1871) unified Germany.
Elisabeth of Habsburg (the mother of kings) had a Piast Grand grand mother - Elisabeth of Pomerania, the grand daughter of Casimir the Great - king of Poland. Elisabeth of Habsburg spend 51 years in Poland, never leaving the country. She mastered Polish language and never spoke German again, even to her kids, so when her oldest daughter Jadwiga wed with the prince of Bavaria, she needed a translator, because she didn't speak a word of German!
3 OK
4 OK
5 Official meaningless titles one might add. And neither Pope or the Emperor ever recognized secularization of the Teutonic Order and conversion of its lands to the Protestant Ducal Prussia, but what does it prove?
Can't write any more today. Also I will not be available tomorrow, because of an urgent business downtown.
Space Cadet 04:04, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The resulting Second Treaty of Thorn (October 1466) provided for the Order's cession to the 'Polish crown' of its rights over the western half of Prussia. This treaty was between some Prussian cities and Casimir IV, who initially helped, but then wanted to annex wrongfully, which had started the 13 years war. The treaty was not recognized by pope, nore by the emperor, the supreme overlords of Prussia.
Prussia or Preussen remained the official names and Royal Prussia was not the official name. When one finds later destriptions titled Königliches Preussen, it refers to the kings of Prussia.
Prussia ( the later so identified Royal Prussia part ) stood under patronage of the Grand Dux of Lithuania (the Jagiello/Habsburg/Wasas, Wettins)). For his function in Prussia the Grand Dux held the title Dux Prussia. The other part continued to be officially Prussia as well, but was later identified as Ducal Prussia. Both the Royal and The Ducal names were only for identification purposses.
What is also confusing to a number of people today, is the fact, that the Grand Dux also became King of Poland. People sometimes believe this to mean, that Prussia became Poland or belonged to Poland. This is an error. A sample is the case of the dukes of Hannover, who also functioned as kings of England, dukes of Schleswig Holstein functioned as kings of Denmark, etc. The European imperial, royal and ducal families interchanged rules in different counties continously.
The Wettin Saxony electors for nearly a hundred years were Sac Rom Imporium- Imperial Kurfuersten electors, kings of Poland Rex Polonia and Dux Lithuania, Rus, Prus and Masovia. At the same time the Hohenzollern were Dux of Prussia.
Ermland or Warmia which is situated in the center of Eastern Prussia or Royal Prussia, remained an exempt imperial Prince-Bishopric.
The Hanse cities retained their independent status as well. They were entitled to take part in imperial diets. They kept seperate, independent armies, money system, law system and their ships flew seperate city-state flags.
The eastern part of Prussia remained under the rule of the Order and its successors, until 1660 under 'Polish suzerainty as a Polish fief', becoming the later so identified Duchy of Prussia in 1525 when the Order's Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg adopted Lutheranism and secularised his land as hereditary ruler. To clarify again, this part of Prussia also remained officially Prussia (and not Ducal Prussia).
During the First (1772) and Second (1793) Partitions of Poland West Prussia was re-united politically with East Prussia and incorporated into the Kingdom of Prussia.
- A few facts:
1. The 13 Years War was between Teuthonic Order and Polish Kingdom only. Lithuania was not engaged in the War. And obviously the States of Prussia recognized authority of King of Poland, not Grand Duke of Lithuania. 2. Emperor was not a lord over Poland. His recognision had the same value like recognition from the Emperor of China. No Emperor's claims to Royal Prussia were recognized by Poland. 3. Royal Prussia was directly included into Polish Crown in 1569 (Great Poland province). 4. Many Polish cities were members of Hanza. It did not make them independent. 5. From 1569 Lithuania was not a separate state any more. 6. State was not personal property of the King. 7. Warmia was a part of Royal Prussia and Warmian bishop was a member of (Royal) Prussian senat. Etc.
Yeti
Dear Yeti A few more facts: The 13 years war was the war between the cities, that is the Prussian cities, some remained with the Teutonic Knights, others became independend, officially recognized is Evangelisch- Protestant in 1525. Obviously Kasimir Casimir IV was from the Lithuanian house of Jagiello, ruled as grand dukes of Lithuania and also as kings of Poland. Casimir married Elisabeth Habsburg in 1454 and therefore he was asked for help by the Prussians, because he now was the son-inlaw of emperor Albert II and grandson-in-law of emperor Sigismund. None of the socaled "Polish" kings were ever king of Prussia. They were dukes of Prussia. (Almost ?) each one of the Jagiello Lithuanian grand dukes (also kings of Poland) was married or the child of a Habsburg.
4. Krakow was a "Polish" Hanse city, but it could have actually been an imperial city for some time. Emperor Charles IV was married in Krakow to Elisabeth of Pomerania.
By the way, Pomerania was a part of the empire at least since 1181 until 1806 continously. I think SC made some remark above about Pomerania.
6. States, territories were personal properties of the nobility, they were bought and sold or traded constantly.
7. Again, one more time-- Ermland Warmia was an exempt diocese under government of an imperial {{Holy Roman Empire]] Prince-Bishop.
Please , do me a favor and correct the mistakes in the different Wikipedia articles you have input today. Thanks. MfG
Dear MfG
I am afraid your interpretation of history is highly controversial.
1. Writing that the war was between between Teuthonic Order and Polish Kingdom I mean that Lithuania was not engaged in the conflict. So obviousely, Lithuania was not the part in Torn Peace II, but only Kingdom of Poland and the cities were subdued to King of Poland. Of course he was also ruler of indepenant state of Lithuania, but this state had nothing to do with War on Prussia in 1454.
2. I know nothing about protestantism in 1466. Polish King granted to cities of Prussia vast authonomy (of course it isa modern term) in internal affairs. Besides in Poland was never the rule "cuius regio uius religio". But were subdued to King of Poland, not GD of Lithuania (even if it as the same person. Kingdom of Poland was not a personal property of any king. His "positions" as King of Poland and GD of Lithuania were entirely different matters. Besides, the Polish monarchy was not (in theory) hereditary at least from 14th century.
4. Self rule of Polish royal cities enabled them to deal them directly with foreign cities. Writing about Krakow as imperial city is ridicoulous. Yhe Emperor was in Krakow a guest of Polish King, nothing more. If you write about Gdansk or Krakow as subdued to Emperor, you can write the same way also about London or Paris. Emperorors considered themself Lords of all Christan rulers. Unfortunatelly, opinion of Kings and nobles of Kingdoms of England, France and Poland were a little bit different.
5. Duchy of Pomerania (sundued to Emperor) and Eastern Pomerania are entariely different territories.
6. "States, territories were personal properties of the nobility, they were bought and sold or traded constantly" - I think you should learn somthing on this subject. I will not comment it.
7. Warmia was not a part of Empire. Of course opinion of Emperor could be different: see 4. In fact was subdued to Polish King, and the bishop was member of diet of Royal Prussia.
8. The all controversies about the status of Royal Prussia ended in 1569, when it was included directly into Greater Poland province of Polish Crown.
If you'd like to something more about political structure of Poland between 14th and 18th centuries you can have a look at: History of Poland, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Nobles Republic.
Regards,
Isn't Knipawa a district of Krolewiec? And can we use "Krolewiec" instead of Knipawa? Que piensan, ustedes, vatos?
Gloger, Geografia historyczna
Zygmunt Gloger, Geografia historyczna ziem dawnej Polski. W tekście 63 autentycznych rycin, Kraków 1903 Prusy Polskie, czyli Królewskie.
Ziemia Chełmińska, dana przez Konrada I Mazowieckiego jako uposażenie jałmużnicze Zakonowi krzyżackiemu, tudzież Pomorze polskie z Gdańskiem, zagrabione Władysławowi Łokietkowi roku 1309 przez Zakon, podlegając rządom krzyżackim, zachowywały obyczaj i narodowość polską. Ucisk i wyzysk chciwego Zakonu, doznawany przez wszystkich mieszkańców tych ziem, zarówno przez wieśniaków, jak szlachtę i mieszczan, zarówno Polaków, jak Niemców (osiedlających się w miastach), utrzymywał w nich tradycye swobód, jakie posiadali pierwej pod rządem Polski lub książąt Pomorskich, i podsycał we wszystkich mieszkańcach żądzę zrzucenia z siebie jarzma krzyżackiego.
Czterech więc rycerzy (mających dobra blisko miasta Radzyna) w ziemi Chełmińskiej zawiązało, w celu pozbycia się panowania Zakonu, rodzaj bractwa, sprzysiężenia, które przyjęło nazwę Jaszczurkowego, podobno z powodu, że wyobrażenie tego niewinnego gadu służyło spiskowym jako znak do wzajemnego poznawania się między sobą. Do tego stowarzyszenia, które ufne w swa siłę, poczęło działać jawnie, przystąpiła szlachta ziemi Chełmińskiej, Ostrorodzkiej, Dzierzgowskiej, Elbląskiej, oraz mieszkańcy miast: Torunia, Brodnicy, Grudziądza, Elbląga, Brunsbergi i innych. Za takie dążności potępieni przez cesarza niemieckiego, protektora Zakonu, wysłali spiskowcy roku 1454 przedstawicieli swoich do Krakowa, gdzie przed królem Kazimierzem Jagiellończykiem oświadczyli pamiętne słowa, że „jak tylko stali się panami woli swojej, postanowili natychmiast powrócić na łono dawnej i odwiecznej ojczyzny, od której obłudą lub siłą oręża oderwani byli”.
Kiedy król, po wybuchu wojny z Zakonem, przyjechał z Torunia do Elbląga, gdzie – jak mówi Bielski – „nie jako za pana, ale ledwie nie za Boga od tych tam ludzi był przyjęt”, prócz szlachty przysięgali mu także na wierność trzej biskupi pruscy: chełmiński, pomezański i sambieński. Nastąpił sejm w Grudziądzu, na którym stanęła unia ziem „Pruskich” z Koroną. Senatorowie tych ziem, na równi z koronnymi, mieli zasiadać w radzie koronnej, czyli Wielkoradzie królewskiej, i wspólnie króla wybierać. Król przyrzekał, że urzędy w ziemiach Pruskich będzie rozdawał tylko obywatelom miejscowym. Prusy zachowywały oddzielny swój skarb, prawo indygenatu i pospolitego ruszenia w granicach tylko pruskich.
Pokój toruński, zawarty po skończonej wojnie 13-letniej z Zakonem, roku 1466, pozostawił Wielkiego Mistrza w lennem względem Polski posiadaniu Prus książęcych. A że księstwo to leżało na wschód od Prus, połączonych z Polską, powstały stąd nazwy: Prus wschodnich, czyli książęcych, pozostawionych Krzyżakom ze stolicą w Królewcu, oraz Prus zachodnich, czyli polskich lub królewskich. Te ostatnie razem z Warmią przedstawiały rozległość około 630 mil kwadratowych i co do wielkości były prawie równe Prusom wschodnim. Tym sposobem musiało ustać istnienie postanowionego podczas wojny 13-letniej województwa Królewieckiego, a stanęły tylko w Prusiech zachodnich trzy województwa: zamiast Toruńskiego Chełmińskie, zamiast Elblągskiego Malborskie razem z księstwem Warmińskiem i zamiast Gdańskiego województwo Pomorskie.
Jeszcze na początku tej wojny Kazimierz Jagiellończyk ustanowił dla ziem pruskich i nominował 4 wojewodów: gdańskiego, toruńskiego, elblągskiego i królewieckiego. Królewiecki był już wobec pozostawienia tej części Prus Krzyżakom niepotrzebny. Teraz król ustanowił 3 kasztelanów: chełmińskiego, elblągskiego i gdańskiego; 3 podkomorzych, 3 chorążych, miecznika i podskarbiego ziem Pruskich, oraz sędziów po powiatach. Urzędnicy ziemscy w województwach pruskich byli następujący: podkomorzy, chorąży, sędzia ziemski, ławnicy czyli sądowi, którzy są asesorami na sądach ziemskich, i pisarz ziemski.
Najprzód wszystkie województwa odprawiały sejmiki u siebie. Województwo Pomorskie, jako największe i aż w czterech miejscach sejmikujące, miało po tych sejmikach powiatowych sejmik wojewódzki, czyli „generalik pomorski”. Następnie posłowie zewsząd wybrani jechali na sejm prowincyonalny, to jest na ów Generał pruski, który odbywał się kolejno raz w Grudziądzu, drugi raz w Malborgu, a trzeci raz w Gniewie. Z Generału, na którym prezydował zawsze książę biskup warmiński, a w niebytności jego biskup chełmiński, posłowie jechali na sejm koronny. Jeżeli który sejmik w 3 województwach nie stanął, nie mogło być Generału, albo jeżeli zerwano Generał, posłowie na sejm koronny nie jechali. Początkowo na Generałach pruskich sam król powinien był przewodniczyć. Zwano je po łacinie Conventus Generales.
Senat pruski (Wielkorada Prus polskich) składał się z 15 senatorów czyli wielkoradców, a mianowicie: 2 biskupów: chełmińskiego i warmińskiego (bo dwaj inni, sambieński i pomezański, ze swemi dyecezyami pozostali u Krzyżaków w Prusiech wschodnich), 3 wojewodów 3 kasztelanów, 3 podkomorzych, 3 przedstawicieli głównych miast pruskich: Gdańska, Elbląga i Torunia, i wreszcie podskarbiego ziem Pruskich. Tak w senacie pruskim, jako i na Generałach, urzędowy tytuł prezydującego księcia biskupa warmińskiego był: Princeps Sacri Romani Imperii, t. j. książę świętego państwa rzymskiego, i ten w sprawach kościoła nie podlegał arcybiskupowi gnieźnieńskiemu, tylko samej Stolicy Apostolskiej.
Do Senatu Koronnego (od roku 1466) wchodziło 8 senatorów pruskich, a mianowicie: 2 biskupów, 3 wojewodów i 3 kasztelanów, których krzesła do czasu unii lubelskiej stały razem, jako oddzielna prowincya. Dopiero na sejmie powyższym (1569 roku) postanowiono za zgodą ogólną pomięszać krzesła wszystkich prowincyi Rzeczypospolitej, a więc i pruskie, w pewnym oczywiście porządku, podług starszeństwa województw. Miecznik ziem pruskich i inni wszyscy urzędnicy, nie należący do Senatu Pruskiego, mieli swoje stalla w niższej izbie sejmowej.
Wszystkie obrady na sejmikach powiatowych i na Generale prowincyi pruskiej odbywały się po polsku, sami tylko deputowani od miast (Gdańska, Elbląga i Torunia) mogli czynić wnioski po łacinie, gdyby z tego chcieli korzystać. Prawa ziemskie, zwane Jus terrestre, nadane przez
- No, z tym to chyba lekka przesada. Przed unia Lubelska na pewno nie. Obrady byly prowadzone czesto po niemiecku, zwlaszcza przedstawiciele miast mowili czesto po niemicku, takie przynajmniej mam wrazenie po lekturze paru ksiazek na ten temat. Po UoL i unifikacji kraju moglo sie to zmienic.Szopen 09:31, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kazimierza Jagiellończyka, z późniejszemi zmianami obowiązywały szlachtę, której apelacya służyła do trybunału piotrkowskiego. Później, na mocy uchwały sejmu z roku 1764, ustanowiony Trybunał Wielkopolski począł sądzić sprawy kadencyami, w Poznaniu i Bydgoszczy, dla Wielkopolski i Prus królewskich. Miasta, rządząc się prawem chełmińskiem, odwoływały się do sądów nadwornych królewskich.
Prusy polskie słynęły z handlowych i bogatych miast, nad Wisłą i Nogatem położonych. O trzech najgłówniejszych: Gdańsku, Elblągu i Torunia, mówiło pospolite przysłowie, że: „Toruń piękny, Elbląg mocny, Gdańsk bogaty”. Wszystkie trzy miały prawo bicia własnej monety i biły jej dużo. Miasta powyższe dostarczały Europie: polskie zboże, potaż, wosk i inne produkta, a sprowadzały morzem dla Polski towary kolonialne, śledzie i ryby zamorskie, wina francuskie i hiszpańskie, cienkie sukna, tkaniny jedwabne i t. d. Prusy polskie obfitowały w dobrą glebę, rybne jeziora, żyzne pastwiska, obfitość pięknego bydła, oraz bursztyn, wyrzucany falami Bałtyku. Miały te ziemie porty morskie i zamki warowne, a w miastach bogate mieszczaństwo i kupiectwo. To też od czasu powrócenia ziem pomorskich do Polski za Kazimierza IV, statyści zaznaczyli wzrost dostatków w Koronie Polskiej.
