Talk:Rebirth (Buddhism)

From Academic Kids

I'd like to add something to this page about the common western Buddhist's view of this as a metaphor, etc.

But before that... does anyone think it might be good to explain the POINT of reincarnation, rather than just the details and/or debate surrounding it? I mean, to begin the article with why it's an important teaching, regardless of whether it's believed or not?

--Jel 16:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, there are a number of issues here, among them being my objection to severing the discussion of reincarnation from that of "Buddhist rebirth" and your point regarding reinterpretations of it as a metaphor. Please feel free to chip away at the article, though I would caution you against identifying the metaphorical interpretation as the "common" "western" one, as I'm not sure it is.कुक्कुरोवाच 19:00, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jel - be aware that there are many numbers of Western Buddhists who do not in any way consider rebirth to be metaphoric. There are plenty of Western Buddhists who do not consider the hell realms to be metaphoric. There are some Western Buddhists who believe that the world as a sphere is metaphoric, and that the Buddhist Kalachakra view of the world (flat, with a mountain in the middle) is the literal truth. however, if you wish to qualify your claims into a more specific group (e.g. the FWBO - not that I know what the FWBO say), then go ahead. (20040302 13:29, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC))

Alternative definition

There is another definition of rebirth which seems to be missing here. This is the concept of being continuously reborn into a succession of mental states such as hunger, irritation, the memory of an event from the past, awareness of a sense feeling. This cycle of "birth" and "death" is clearly distinguishable from the concepts of reincarnation and rebirth (as hitherto defined in this article) which are concerned with what happens after conventional death. This aspect of rebirth is taught certainly within the Theravadin tradition and probably other schools as being observable through meditation practice.

Unless there is justifiable objection, I would like to add some narrative to describe this and to link it to other concepts such as Vipassana and Anatta.

VirtuousCircle 00:41, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please do! This is definitely needed. --Munge 07:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Finally managed to produce what I suggested above. Needs review and maybe some rework of the original material which I have mostly kept intact. All comments welcome.

VirtuousCircle 23:34, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Buddhist texts which cast doubt on reincarnation

Here's an excerpt from the Kalama Sutra (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel008.html) of the Anguttara Nikaya, as translated by Soma Thera

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

While I've emphasized a great number of Buddhist texts that suggest an agnostic viewpoint, this one is quite explicit about not simply accepting (as the current article says) that "According to Buddhism, there is a cycle of rebirth..."

Also, as I've pointed out elsewhere, In the Sabbasava Sutta (http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html), Majjhima Nikaya 2, Gautama says that the result of attending to unhelpful questions, such as "Was I in the past?...Shall I be in the future?...Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?"...are several kinds of unhelpful views, including "I have a self" and "I have no self".

Note those unhelpful views are the result of speculating about rebirth. --Munge 07:47, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)