Talk:Quackery
From Academic Kids
Quackery has existed all throughout human history, and probably pre-dates the emergence of effective medicine.
I don't think you can have quackery without effective medicine. It seems to me that quackery is not merely useless but also presented as an alternative to something that actually works. When the mainstream witch doctor offers me willowbark tea for pain and the alternative witch doctor says I should turn around three times and spit, the alternative witch doctor is a quack. When the only witch doctor tells me to turn around three times and spit, he isn't -- although sooner or later someone's going to try those willows. --Calieber 16:24, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- I second Calieber's opinion. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
The terms "quack" and "quackery" seem rather informal and pejoritive to me, thus making a "Quckery" article POV. Also, there seems to be a great deal of overlap between what is described in the article, and alternative medicine. If there is a difference between quackery and alternative medicine, it should be described clearly at the begining of the article. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
- This article bothers me too, for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. -- Viajero 10:07, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Those making money out of quackery call it alternative medicine; those losing money to alternative medicine call it quackery. :-D
- I started this article ages ago when I first discovered Wikipedia. It was on the requested articles page and I thought I could write something about it.
- Quackery implies the quack is ripping off the customer, like the "snake oil sellers" of the past (patent medicine). This article should be about this practice, and the people involved. It's not a discussion of herbal medicines or anything, it's about the scams.
- The first line does say "unproven, ineffective" "to make money", and i'm not really sure whether the distinction to alternative medicine needs to be made. The article no longer implies much connection between the two. It may have been originally (and still be) slightly POV, in terms of what it calls quackery, but that's potentially fixable. Tristanb 11:31, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Well, if it's about scams, then wouldn't the difference between quackery and alternative medicine be that the quack doesn't believe what he practices, while a practicioner of alterative medicine does? If someone selling snake oil actually believes in it, I couldn't consider that a scam.
- If we made that sort of distinction, then "psychic surgery" would always be quackery, since the "psychic" surgeon has to use sleight of hand, while accupuncture wouldn't be, since most accupuncturists believe in what they're doing. -- Khym Chanur 12:06, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
- Is accupuncture considered quackery? I suppose it has been. Maybe my definition of quackery is wrong/imprecise; "scam" may not have been the best word to use. BTW Is psychic surgery ever not quackery?
- Is "deceit" a word to use? Are accupuncturists deceiving their clients, even if they believe the process is effective? Deception implies a deliberateness. I should get a dictionary :-) But if deceit can happen without the deceiver knowing it, then that's a word i'd use. Tristanb 00:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"Some studies show up to 80% of people will report an improvement in their condition after taking a sugar pill. " It seems that on a page concerning quackery a reference would be appropriate of such a vauge statement.
- I have to say, this article troubles me deeply. It is not just POV, it's a diatribe. As User:Khym Chanur said, even the title is a perjorative term. IMO, the article needs to be rewritten from scratch (And I say this as someone who personally shares the sentiments expressed in the article). RMoloney 16:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Just like there are pious frauds, there are undoubtedly people who believe they are practicing efficacious medicine but are deluding themselves as well as their patients. Whether that amounts to quackery may be a semantic question: in any event, it is not accurate to label anything the AMA doesn't wholeheartedly endorse as "quackery," any more than it would be accurate to label everything the AMA does a result of conflict of interest. There appears to be a group of editors who have found a mission in demonizing everything that doesn't fit into their definition of "science." --Leifern 16:27, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
The definition of quackery suggests that there are con men deliberately deceiving other people. This is often not the case. Generally the quack sincerely believes in his own quackery. But the quack fails apply a scientific method to evaluate his own 'cure' and is very unopen for any suggestion that he may be wrong. Good doctors can believe false things too but they have studied the scientific literature and are open to evidence that they are wrong. Andries
Calieber is right, but not quite on the mark. The necessary requirement for the defintion of "quackery" is an established profession, a guild, of physicians or chemists (who sell medicine). The first mentioning of quackery in Swedish law dates back to 1675, and is a protection for the profession of chemists against competition from amateur practitioners of their trade, i.e. from non-members of their guild. The idea that concern for the public health would be a motive for such laws sounds right to the general public and has therefore been a useful argument, but is merely propaganda from members of the trade, who want to regulate against competition. -- LA2, August 25, 2004
Interesting. Dunno if it's so. Several sites are claiming "quack" came from "quacksalver", supposedly the Germanic "quicksilver", back in the time of the battle of the fillings: "quacks" used mercury amalgams, which were not only poisonous but swelled and split teeth (eventually a bit of tin was added to rememdy that). The original quacks? The American Dental Association. (The American Society of Dental Surgeons faded away because their superior fillings were too expensive.)
The present German for mercury is Quecksilber (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quecksilber)...but spellings change, and the phonetics are the real point.
Orthodoxy holds it comes directly from Dutch (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?quacksalver), "quacking salver". Perhaps it's a Dutch pun on mercury pedllers - i unnerstan the Dutch love punning - but it makes the ADA/ASDS story less likely.
It'd be nice to confirm or refute the ADA/ASDS part, in any case. 142.177.169.163 00:02, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- The ADA confirms fragments of it (http://www.ada.org/public/topics/history/timeline_19cent.asp):
- 1833-1850 The Crawcours (two brothers from France) introduce amalgam filling material in the United States under the name Royal Mineral Succedaneum. The brothers are charlatans whose unscrupulous methods spark the "amalgam wars," a bitter controversy within the dental profession over the use of amalgam fillings.
- 1840 The American Society of Dental Surgeons, the world's first national dental organization, is founded. (The organization dissolves in 1856.)
- but the two organisations were not contemporary:
- 1859 Twenty-six dentists meet in Niagara Falls, New York, and form the American Dental Association. 142.177.169.163 00:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Re. placebo: There is now lots of research targeting at the immune system which can be condtioned, thereby establishing a link between the body and the mind. A link we have known for many years without really knowing how it worked. Eg. mice were given a medium strong poison in a sugar solution upon which they felt strong nausea and lost their fur. Six months later they were given just the sugar solution upon which they reacted likewise. /Sigvard Lingh
- I found the above text posted by someone who also deleted the See also section. While this study may be true, I'm not sure it belongs in this article. I'm putting it here in case anyone wants deal with it. -Willmcw 00:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
