Talk:Prophet

Contents

1 Biblical prophets 2 A removal 3 Christian concepts of a prophet 4 Merging? 5 Notability 6 keyboard 7 Zarathushtra?

Biblical prophets

Article says "Within this group, many Protestants believe that prophecy ended with the last of the prophets in the portion of the Old Testament included in their canon, leaving a gap of about 400 years between then and the coming of Jesus Christ" -- doesn't the NT say John the Baptist was a prophet?

And, don't the Epistles speak of prophets or prophecy in the early church? (Which would seem to indicate that it didn't die out until the end of the apostolic age?)

Finally, doesn't the book of Revelations (Rev. 11:3) predict a comeback for prophecy? (The two witnesses who will prophesy for 1260 days?) -- SJK

Regarding the Protestant belief, that's what I gathered from growing up in Sunday School in a variety of Protestant settings, but my experience is a very small data point. If you have other experience or data that suggests Protestants view John the Baptist as a prophet, than perhaps "many Protestants" should be downgraded to "some" or "a few"; or delete the reference to Protestants and Orthodox and just say "many Christians think John the Baptist was the last prophet" if my experience turns out to have been an anomaly. That wouldn't terribly surprise me, on something like this.

The Epistles do speak of prophecy and even prophets, mostly in terms of a gift or role that a person might exercise from time to time. I don't think the NT names specific people as prophets, though I could be mistaken. Historically, the Church has often referred to such people as "saints" rather than prophets, whereas OT holy people are usually called "prophets" rather than "saints", or it seems based on my limited exposure. I don't think you see specific people identified as prophets until you get down to groups like the Latter Day Saints. As for anything dying out at the end of the apostolic age, prophecy or anything else, I think that belief is only held by some dispensationalist theologians. Certainly the Catholic and Orthodox would affirm that the apostolic age is continuing via apostolic succession, and many Pentecostals, Charismatics, and other Protestants would say that the Holy Spirit continues to be active in the church and in the world in a number of ways, including by bestowing prophecy. Perhaps the difference between OT and NT prophecy is best shown in the Joel passage that's quoted in Acts 2.

Revelations says lots of things, which are interpreted many many different ways. :-) If we were discussing what the Bible actually teaches, we could quote Scripture verses in defense of this or that interpretation, as well as argue that this or that methodology should be used to interpret the verses, or that a particular tradition of interpretation is authoritative and ought to be followed. As we write these encyclopedia articles, I think our job is to document what the major groups of people out there believe that the Bible teaches, both historically and today. With that in mind, do you or any groups you know of believe that Revelation predicts a comeback of prophecy? As for me, I've believed many things about it myself, to the point now of being fairly thoroughly agnostic about it.

These are good questions, and I'm glad you raised them. Hope this is dialogue is helpful, and that it results in an improved article. I think it will. --Wesley

Muhammad was not the seventh Muslim prophet, although he was the last. He was the last of the "5" prophets who brought with themselves a book (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad). Muslims have thousands of other prophets, although they did not bring upon their people a religion. Alireza Hashemi

Some of them did. E.g., the Persians Zoroaster and Mani. Don't Muslims regard them as prophets? Some people think the Mandaean religion was founded by John the Baptist, who is considered by Mandaeans the greatest prophet (although they claim their religion antedates him, just as Muslims claim theirs antedates Muhammad). Since someone asked about Roman Catholic views of John the Baptist, I believe I recall reading in the online Catholic Encyclopedia (I don't recall the URL, but you can find it via Google) that Catholics do consider him a prophet. Michael Hardy 21:22 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)

In response to your comments:There are thousands of prophets, however Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are of the ololazm. Zaroaster is considered by some to be a ololazm prophet, although he has never been mentioned. With the many thousand prophets muslims have in virtually every region of the world, even the Buddha might be considered as a prophet.

The "Revelation of Ares" is not really a religion. It is the work of one Frenchman, named Michel Potay, a former Eastern Orthodox Deacon who since 1974 claims to be a new prophet of God. He has been ignored by the masses, and has few followers. His faith isn't even a statistical blip, and it does not (yet?) merit any text within this article. We can, of course, create a new article on this new spiritual movement.

Deleted material follows:

Views of The Revelation of Arès ===

The Revelation of Arès took place in Arès (France) and made the witness of the supernatural events, Michel POTAY, a prophet. The Revelation of Arès was given by Jesus in 1974 (40 Apparitions) and God in 1977 (5 Theophanies), it constitutes a recent but major Revelation since the Bible and the Qur'an.

The Revelation of Arès recalls the monotheistic roots, in order to recreate and dynamise spiritual life, which is the fundamental task of any prophet. The basic message is that man will not gain happiness by any rigid, dogmatic, legalistic, ideological, political, scientific, financial, nationalistic, theological, etc., system, but by simply recreating himself good, becoming once again the positive image and likeliness of the Creater, thus redeeming himself and recreating Eden, here on earth.

The Revelation of Arès refers to former prophets (Zarathustra, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, Muhammad) in a unique way, inciting the faithful of The Revelation of Arès to accomplish all their respective messages in a spiritual and virtuous harmony with this recent Revelation. It is giving many insights as to how everybody is to become a prophet himself by delegation, e.g. by living and spreading all the Word of God, as revealed by His prophets.

The original text of The Revelation of Arès is edited in a book with the same title. In Arès (France) takes place a pilgrimage every summer, which is destined to give the humble pilgrim coming there the forces to accomplish his intentions of recreating himself and the world good, in order to contribute to change human history to the better, which is the reason why all the prophets are sent.

This material has been moved to a new article: Revelation of Arès. COGDEN 19:02, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't some mention of classical oracles, and so forth, be mentioned on this page? As I recall, soothsayers, and so forth, were sometimes called prophets. john 22:34 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me! RK 22:37 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A removal

I removed the following text, which seems awkward and not really à propos to this article:

Readers of this article are encouraged to read the parallel article on revelation, as the term revelation itself has a number of meanings and interpretations, even within the same religion. Various forms of revelation have been proposed, including: verbal revelation; Aristotelian rationalism; non-Verbal propositional revelation; and God's will as revealed through a people's historical development of their faith. In the 20th century existentialism has inspired new ways of understanding revelation.

COGDEN 16:54, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Christian concepts of a prophet

I removed "for the link to the divine is threatened. Questions of self-deception and gullibility arise from those who remain unconvinced." because:

• The first part seemed like a bit of unnecessary psychoanalysis. Isn't it enough to state what without hypothesizing why?
• The second part is about skeptics' view of the Christian concept of prophecy, not the concept itself. If this perspective is going to be included, it should be separate from this section, because these "questions of self-deception and gullibility" apply to all believers in prophecy, not just the Christian variety.

Tverbeek 01:35, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Raw censorship. If prophecy is a link to the divine as it is claimed, then doubt threatens the link to the divine. A functional and logical statement, not "unnecessary psychoanalysis." Questions of self-deception and gullibility do indeed apply to all believers in prophecy, assessed from a skeptical, which is to say a rational and neutral point-of-view. This suppression is too shallow to deceive and too offensive to stand. A mark of dishonor for User:Tverbeek. I refuse to revert, since reversion has been so compromised by just this kind of "editing." Wetman 04:11, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not trying to suppress anything (I don't believe in prophecy either), so please tone down the hyperbolic rhetoric. I think the skeptic's take on all this is pretty self-evident, which is why I didn't think it needed to be spelled out, but if you think it does, by all means, include the comments about how skeptics view prophecy, but put them in an appropriate context. The insertion of critical comments in that particular section seems like an attempt to insert your own POV into a description of someone else's.

P.S. Anyone who believes that his own POV is inherently NPOV should be prepared for questions of self-deception from those who remain unconvinced. :) Tverbeek 11:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No educated person could imagine that skepticism is a "take" in a neutral atmosphere. Skepticism is an intellectual starting-point. It is the neutral starting-ground for the rest of us here at Wikipedia. In fact the lack of skepticism is a symptom of a cultist in its most negative connotation. Wikipedians should not all be bullied by a handful of aggressive cultists. "If prophecy is a link to the divine as it is claimed, then doubt threatens the link to the divine." Where is the illogic of this neutral and axiomatic statement? Why are we to be censored by Tverbeek in this repellant manner? --Wetman 01:11, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't really understand the point of these sentences. Obviously those who are assured in their own worldview (be they bible-thumper or skeptic) think everyone who thinks differently is gullible and deluded, and this works both ways. It seems too obvious to state. Why do we need to explain why this is the case in this article, as opposed to some more general article on religion or skepticism? COGDEN 04:28, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well, that's a sensible thought! --Wetman 07:22, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Merging?

Why should this article be merged? Prophecy is the act of telling the future, a prophet is the person who does it - they're both long pages, and I'm pretty sure they'd spit out page size warnings if they were merged.

I'm removing the merge notice and removed the merge listing - see Talk:Prophecy#Prophecy distinct from Prophet -- Zawersh 06:23, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Notability

Shouldn't there be some minimal standard of notability for a religion to have a section on this page? In particular, do the last two - Direct Worship and some splinter sect of Rastafarianism - really merit a whole subsection, particularly when major issues like the Nilotic concept of prophecy remain undiscussed? - Mustafaa 22:16, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's a problem, but the NPOV policy makes it more difficult to exclude marginal stuff like this. Jayjg 04:32, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

keyboard

Shouldn't we mention the Prophet electronical music keyboard? Purple Rose 14:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zarathushtra?

Where is Zarathushtra (Zoroaster)?! Is there a reason why he is not here? Considering the impact his religion had on Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism (not to mention Manichaeism, Mazdakism, Mithraism and others), I find it a major omission. I just wanted to ask, before I consider endeavoring to distill what I know into a section. Others have mentioned him above, but only as a peripheral matter in regards to Islam or The Revelation of Arès. Zoroastrianism may be the smallest of the great World Religions, but its current size belies its historic notability which is especially apparent in the eschatology, soteriology, dualism, angels, temptation by evil, the three wise men, et cetera ad æternum, of the three largest monotheistic faiths today. In essence (or should I say Essenes!) he's a prophet's prophet and I am mystified why he's not here. I can not varify whether or not Zarathushtra is considered a minor Islamic prophet, but Magians are only mentioned once in the Qur'ān (22:17) and not spoken well of in the Ḥadīth. After the Arab conquest of Persia, Zoroastrians were officially considered as 'people of the book' (which is an interesting footnote considering their scriptures were non-Abrahamic), though in reality they were heavily persecuted and driven into the hills of Iran and to exile in India. Khirad 14:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An omission. --Wetman 18:59, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)