Talk:Poodle

From Academic Kids

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Source for the "national dog of France" thing. (http://www.puppydogweb.com/caninebreeds/poodles.htm) Just Googling comes up with a LOT of pages to back up the claim: which I did, before including it here. --Suitov

Excuse me, but the page you link to does not say what you pretend it says. I read "France has now been officially recognized as the country of the Poodles origin though some authorities attribute Germany as the country of origin.". This does not mean that the poodle is France's national dog, it means that the Poodle, officially, originates from France. That's fairly different.

For the Poodle to be France's national dog, you'd need a statement to that effect from the French government or from something like the French canine federation. In fact, if you look in the French media, you'll see no such claim. David.Monniaux 13:33, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well. Actually, the page says pretty clearly, not three sentences later:

"Originally bred as a retriever and flushers of birds the Poodle became quite popular among French aristocracy and was designated the national dog of France."

It doesn't give dates or any kind of official statement, but as I said, Googling for "French national dog" or "national dog of France" or similar will bring up a whole slew of different sources claiming the same thing. --Suitov 15:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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How big are poodles? I think Standard poodles are actually medium to large dogs, while toy poodles are closer to cat-sized (10-20 kilos?), but I don't know... What is the difference between toy and miniature poodles? --Andrew 02:59, May 3, 2004 (UTC)

I've added the sizes, I'm not sure if that really gives a good picture of the types though, maybe a photo would be more informative -- sannse (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 French origins 2 On my recent edits 3 There's another meaning to it 4 temperment

French origins

While it is true that the French have adopted the Poodle as their own, many experts agree that France is NOT necessarily the country of origin. I don't know who "officially" declared that France was the country of origin (my guess is they're French), but no one besides the French believe this. The country of origin will probably never be known because the dog is such an ancient breed and spread throughout Europe long before France, as a nation, existed.

Having said that, clearly it was the French who were responsible for making the breed so popular. It was the French who bred miniature and toy varieties, and took them from being primarily hunting dogs, to show and companion dogs. If the French want to make the poodle their national dog, they have every right to do so. I just think it is more honest to list the country of origin as "unknown".--Wcrowe 17:31, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"I don't know who "officially" declared that France was the country of origin (my guess is they're French), but no one besides the French believe this."

Actually, no one inside France seems to believe it either. I've only seen this written in English-speaking text. David.Monniaux 17:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On my recent edits

[Shrugging] I'd always thought they were German, so what do I know? I did just add a sentence on the old term 'French Poodle'; I though it belonged here for historical accuracy and interest, but if someone can think of a better place to put it, fine.

I removed the word 'standard' wrt the 'labradoodle' cross, because I believe that the originating (grrr....) L'doodle Club of Aust. uses more than one size poodle in their crosses.

Question: under CARE: shouldn't the word 'possessive' be linked to a dictionary rather than to an article?

I also wanted to indicate that these dogs are not necessarily better for people with allergies--it varies from dog to dog and person to person. Perhaps we need a separate article on 'oodles' and 'poos'...? Quill 21:22, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think you're right to add the bit about "French Poodle". I like how the paragraph turned out. To be sure, the French developed the smaller versions of the breed. It's just that when I read through my dog encyclopedias, and other books on poodles, it becomes clear that no one really knows where the breed originated. My own theory is that a sort of proto poodle existed in Roman times in the Med. region. Some of these dogs moved North and East and became the Puli, and perhaps Poodle. Some were developed in Iberia and became the Portuguese Water Dog and eventually Irish Water Spaniel, etc. Clearly these breeds are all related.--Wcrowe 05:08, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• ...it becomes clear that no one really knows where the breed originated.

Ha! Welcome to the wonderful world of dog breed historians! Quill 06:14, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

On the [[possessive]] question - I think it shouldn't be linked at all. We don't need to define common words, so a Wiktionary link isn't needed, and I can't see an article being particularly useful - So I've delinked the word. -- sannse (talk) 12:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed.

A separate article for those multifarious crossbreeds may be justified, though apart from listing and linking, there doesn't seem much else to say about 'em.

Like how this article's progressing. The France issue has been well resolved. Just because it's the national dog (and darnit, lots of sources DO say so...) that's not to say there's any claim to have originated it. The Welsh didn't invent the dragon, either.  ;) --Suitov 14:10, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

D'accord. If it were put to a vote among the general population, the national dog of the United States would probably be the Labrador Retriever. Never mind that Labrador is not in the U.S. <grin>Wcrowe 16:20, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Google for chien national de la France and you see nothing. I'll remove this meaningless statement. David.Monniaux 07:11, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I went to Yahoo France and just searched for chien national. There were hits for all sorts of other national dogs, but none referring to the Caniche, let alone France. I also found it interesting that two different sites listed two different dogs as the chien national d'Irlande: Kerry Blue Terrier and Irish Wolfhound. If the French have a national dog, they're sure keeping it a secret.The Dogfather 17:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The AKC breed site lists it as the national dog of France, and I'd like to think that those people know the history of their breed :-). I went to my definitive source, the Encycl Britannic (paper version) and it says that the breed is thought to have originated in Germany but became so popular in France that it became the national dog of that country. It doesn't say, any more than any of these sites say, when it became such or how or who declared it as such or whether it was only during the times of the aristocracy... Elf | Talk 19:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I hesitate to add this because I am indifferent as to whether the Poodle is the national dog of France or not, but, FWIW my 1960 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica says: Although the poodle probably was originated by the Germans, it attained its greatest popularity in France and sometimes is called the "French poodle." No mention of it being the national dog. Somebody, somewhere has got to know the definitive answer.The Dogfather 03:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You'd think, huh? But where oh where? The exact quote in my 1982 Britannica is "It grew so popular in France, however, that it became the national dog of that country." I find it odd that of all of the dozens of english pages I found that say essentially the same thing--that's all that any of them say. Does give the impression of being a one-liner that someone wrote authoritatively somewhere & everyone copied without having any more info. Apparently somewhere between 1960 and 1982 E.B. changed its story, so what info did THEY get? And where? It occurred to me also that perhaps the french wouldn't say "national dog of france" for the national dog of france--that it might be some other phrase that we're not thinking of ("official country dog of france" or "the voted-in animal of the country" or some other idiomatic expression); I tried various french searches, too, but got similar negatory results. Elf | Talk 06:43, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It indeed looks to me like some meaningless sentence that people copy from one text to another, without thinking of its meaning. Who can declare something to be a national <foobar> of a country? Obviously, the government of that country. For instance, the French constitution defines the emblem of the French Republic as the tricolor flag, the national motto, and the national anthem. There is obviously no legal text in force that says that the national dog of France is the poodle!

Seriously, I'm a native Frenchman nobody I discussed this with in France knows about any kind of national dog. The only source we have for this "national dog" madness are some English texts that obviously have been copied from each other.

This is probably the case of some sentence who was said as some kind of hyperbole or funny imagery, but has been taken at face value. David.Monniaux 21:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Right, as in the National Bird of the United States (http://bensguide.gpo.gov/k-2/symbols/eagle.html) and the National Flower of the United States (http://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbies/festivals/independence/nationalflower.htm)--both of which indeed have very specific info about where the designation came from. Elf | Talk 23:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. If it's not documented, there's an end to it IMHO. Now, what, exactly, is a 'foo'? Quill 08:10, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Metasyntactic variable David.Monniaux 20:15, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Re. foobar: It, or just plain foo, are to programmers what widgits are to accountants.The Dogfather 06:42, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm beginning to see the light. Quill 09:06, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Deadbrain.com (http://deadbrain.co.uk/news/article_2003_12_17_2528.php) says that poodles are actually being banned in France. They wouldn't ban their national dog, would they? (tongue in cheek).The Dogfather 17:05, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's another meaning to it

Just wanted to let you know that poodle is also the community codename of the Zaurus SL-5600 model, a handheld computer running Linux.

Wow, that fact veritably defines the word "trivia". I was going to ask if anyone knew why the name "poodle" was chosen, but a quick web search revealed that all the Zaurus models appear to have dog breed names. Here are some other examples:

• Collie -- 5500/5000d
• Poodle -- 5600/b500
• Corgi -- C700
• Shepherd -- C750
• Husky -- 760

The Dogfather 15:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

temperment

Might not this need to be a little more informant? I mean, it says they're proud, intelligent, alert, and active. but that doesn't really sum it all up, so how do you put what they act like?

Well--someone needs to figure it out and write it. Preferably someone who knows a lot about a lot of poodles or who has good reference books that they can cite in a "References" section or here on the talk page. Elf | Talk 20:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)