Talk:Planned economy

From Academic Kids

Brief notes on advantages and disadvantages of the following economic systems. Market Economy, Command Economy, Mixed Economy.

Also, whomever iswriting this up should make a stub for palace economies. I have no Idea where to even look for such a thing.
~ender 2003-09-10 03:07:MST

Contents

1 Planned economy working example 2 On behalf of the public? 3 What has an economy other than a state? 4 Definition 5 Participatory economics 6 Market vs. mixed economy

Planned economy working example

Cadr, if you can't give an example of a working planned economy, your last rv is not really a POV fixing revert, I am afraid. The planned economies known examples so far are corruption friendly and create a secondary market, just as Lussmu wrote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:09, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To say that planned economies "don't work" is historically false. In reality, most of the world's planned economies stopped working around the year 1980 - but they had worked very well for many decades before that. And some planned economies had greater achievements than any market economy ever had (for example, the Soviet economy in the 1930s achieved the highest growth rate of any economy in history; planned economies resulted in extremely fast industrializations, and many scientific and technological "firsts" - such as the first artificial sattelite, the first man in space, etc). Furthermore, it is wrong to consider the Soviet system as the model of a planned economy. The Soviet Union had a certain kind of a planned economy, but many different kinds are also possible. After all, there are many different methods of planning. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:25, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

On behalf of the public?

Yeah, right... But lets just assume for a moment you were right. It would still be POV. Please review Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 13:16, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest you check the meaning of the phrase "on behalf of". It doesn't necessarely mean "for the benefit of" (although that is a possible meaning). I used it with the meaning of as an agent of. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:25, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No matter how you look at it, it implies a positive intent. That is unnacceptably POV, esp. when so very many people (I would argue most people) feel that it is done on solely behalf of the ruling party, and to the clear detriment of the unfortunate lower classes. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:44, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They may feel that way about Soviet-style systems, but this article discusses the concept of a planned economy in general. At any rate, since this little phrase seems to mean so much to you, I will look for a more NPOV synonym. (oh, and for the record, the unfortunate lower classes of Russia and Eastern Europe were much better off before 1991 than today - but we've been over this already) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:05, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Whose agents" is irrelevant to the notion. In known real examples they act as agents of state, who claim to be an agent of "working people", not the whole "public". You may as well have a planned economy in a banana monarchy; the definition doesn't preclude that. 16:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the fact that most planners are (or at least claim to be) agents of the people must be mentioned. I'll add "sometimes" in there. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"On behalf of the public" has no relation to "planned economy". Planning may be done on behalf of monarch or dictator. It is only coincidental that in known planned economy they acted allegedly on behalf of "working people". Mikkalai 19:13, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What has an economy other than a state?

?

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:11, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, any sort of human society has an economy. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:11, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suppose so, but doesn't every human society also have a state? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:10, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You must be kidding. Communist society is supposed to be stateless, for starters. Also, my family has an economy, can you believe this? (Although I admit this is mostly my wife's efforts.) User:mikkalai 18:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Suppsed to be" is nothing but propanda exposed for what it is. And you and your wife are members of a state, yes? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 19:20, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Does the planet earth as such, or "all of human society thereon" have an economy? an economy misguidedly segmented, but still AN economy in the same sense that a state has one?

More generally, does an economy have to be "had"? In Aristotelean terms, is it a property attached to a substance, or is it itself a substance? The difference between the terms "society" and "economy" isn't a difference in what they describe, but in how it might be studied. Both words simply name the fact of human interaction -- a sociologist studies it on one set of principles, an economist on another (and you might say that a politician or political scientist/philosopher on a third set, hence the term "state"). --Christofurio 13:27, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

The simple exchange of two goods by two neanderthalers would be considered an economic exchange. An economy is simply the sum of all these exchanges. As such, it cannot be "owned". Luis rib 13:01, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Definition

The definition is tautology. Also, it is wrong. In Soviet Union economic decisions were made by Party, based on political goals and economic information. Gosplan did nothing but implement Party's decisions in detail. Of course, you may call the Soviet Communist Party the "planners", but again, this is circular logic. User:mikkalai 18:35, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) (smth wrong. I cannot login normally)

Participatory economics

Is this generally considered to be a form of planned economy? If so, this would contradict the statement that planned economies always involve central planning by the state.

Also, it says somewhere that orthodox Marxists believe that state planning is essential to Socialism. Presumably, this can only be true if Socialism is being used in the sense of the intermediate system which exists before the state is abolished and Communism is achieved. Maybe this should be clarified in the article.

Any thoughts? Cadr 09:30, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're right, not all planned economies are necessarily planned by the state. Statism is a planned economy specifically planned by the state, whereas a planned economy encompasses all economies that are centrally planned...or can it include economies that are decentrally planned but which are not market economies? Good question. RJII 13:56, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Market vs. mixed economy

I agree that China is nowadays a mixed economy, but in other Communist states the transition did not go via a lengthy mixed econmy phase as in the Chinese case. All the Eastern European countries are market economies nowadays (except Belarus, and Ukraine to some extent). Therefore, it's not correct to change the name of the paragraph from 'market' to 'mixed'. The aim of the transition is to achieve a market economy, not a mixed economy. Therefore, a mixed economy may be part of a transition phase, but is certainly not the end goal of it. Luis rib 15:28, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I adjusted my changes. Though, who's to say that China's aim is to relenquish any more centralized control than it has. RJII 15:32, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

True. We can't be sure if China's aim is a full market economy. The trend in the nineties has been towards more economic freedom, though. Yet it is hard to see how the Communist party could maintain its ideology while allowing full market economy. Therefore, China may be an atypical example of a transition from central planning to mixed/market economy (though Vietnam and Laos (?) seem to have chosen the Chinese way as well). What I miss in this paragraph is Eastern Europe. In a sense, their transition was quite successful as well, since they managed to move to full market economy without falling into Russian-styla chaos. The example of Estonia is particularly startling. Luis rib 16:01, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As of 2005, the PRC is as much a market economy as the United States is, and in distinguishing between command economy and market economy, it's clearly a market economy. It's true that large segments of the economy are state owned, but the state does not control resource allocation via administrative orders.

As far as maintaining ideology. See the article on Chinese economic reform. Roadrunner 22:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)