Talk:Palliative care

From Academic Kids

Alt med

So some areas of alt med like to get involed in palative care. So what? this can be listed on there own pages.Geni 23:10, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

My feeling, too. And the Amer. Board of Hospice/Palliative med should not have been dropped. The development of a speciality board for the field is a milestone in the progress that has been seen in the field. Stephen Holland, M.D., Kd4ttc 00:36, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Intro

The introduction needs a lot of work. At the moment it consists of about four very slightly different definitions taken from different sources. It should be rewritten as one single definition, with links to the sources if necessary. -- ALargeElk | Talk 10:27, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

And, would you mind writing the correct and complete definition while you are at it? -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 10:40, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've just done it. Since there is a consensus about what PC is I don't see any need to have any references. So I removed them all, combined the definitions and added a little bit on how cure is still considered more important than comfort by many(most) doctors. theresa knott 11:08, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think there is a need for links to some of the references, as it seems to me there is some argument about what palliative care is. The WHO definition focuses specifically on incurable diseases; the others imply more about using it in addition to curative treatment. Having all four definitions in full doesn't work, purely in terms of readability, but I think it's important to discuss this issue in the intro. I'll have a go when the heat dies down a bit. -- ALargeElk | Talk 11:17, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

OK, I've had a go - hopefully still makes sense. -- ALargeElk | Talk 11:46, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That was pretty good, but I just did a somewhat drastic edit which I think is a little more clear & concise. I left in the 1990 definition, but the WHO now also uses the term in the more general sense. I dropped the other 2 references, because they seemed redundant as well as misplaced (they were talking about incurable diseases). I also added a paragraph clarifying why we don't say "palliative" for all incurable diseases; rewrote the last paragraph of the intro slightly to clarify that the concept isn't really new, just newly respected; and added a sentence to lead into the Hospice section. --Hob 05:56, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also, in the Hospice section: it is (as far as I know) fairly rare to call palliative care in a hospital setting "hospice", so I reworded the first sentence. I struck the last sentence ("The main difference between hospice care and palliative care is that the former is more about nursing while the latter is the physicians' term") because I think it's neither an accurate summary nor really necessary - palliative & hospice were already defined adequately above. --Hob 06:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Vickers, 2004 : "Palliative Care and Alternative Medicine"

I am glad to see that Mr-Natural-Health has resumed putting CAM-related content here (when he takes a break from "laughing" at fellow Wikipedians.... sigh ....) Unfortunately, a simple copy-&-paste from "Vickers, 2004" is a copyvio. Please at least take off those numbers and modify the sentences a little. Thanks. -- PFHLai 13:13, 2004 Jun 9 (UTC)

No it's fine to quote as long as it is clearly attributed. ( comes under "fair use") Never the less the numbers should come off as they make no sense here. theresa knott 13:28, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'd changed this before I read your message, Theresa. Nevertheless, the link to the research had to go, as it specifically states that "Complementary therapies for cancer-related symptoms were not part of this review" - the research is purely into proposed complementary cures. Incidentally, that research makes interesting reading - it debunks the effectiveness of the vast majority of proposed alternative treatments for cancer, and might make an interesting link from another article somewhere. But it's inappropriate for this one.-- ALargeElk | Talk 13:45, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I notice that MNH had made the point earlier that this was in many ways an anti-Alt Med article, and I can understand that it might have been included as an admirable attempt at compromise. But I really can't see that it improves Wikipedia to have a link to research almost entirely unrelated to palliative care in a palliative care article. -- ALargeElk | Talk 14:06, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It doesn't surprise me in the least bit the MNH would quote an article that was not actually saying what he implied it was. I've had a lot of experience with him over the last few months on alternative medicine and iridology and I believe that everything he quotes needs to be thoroughly checked. I didn't check the quote before making my comment though mainly because i wanted to point out that quoting small sectons of works does not make a copyvio. Anyway no harm done as you were clearly on the ball. theresa knott 14:16, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

So it's not a copyvio, eh ? Okay, thank you. -- PFHLai 14:32, 2004 Jun 9 (UTC)

You're always fine quoting small sections of articles as long as you put it in quotation marks and say who said it. It's only if you cut and paste then pretend it's your own work, or if you you quote very large chunks or even the whole work that you run into problems. theresa knott 14:54, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you look at this edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Palliative_care&diff=3997560&oldid=3997532) (and especially the edit summary) you'll see that MNH doesn't deny that the bulk of the article is anti-alt med. But it's still not relevant to this article. It's cited as well in Alternative medicine - it might also make sense to cite it in Oncology or something like that.-- ALargeElk | Talk 15:43, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Checking what links to this article [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Palliative_care) shows that alternative medicine related stuff tops the list. Just thought that you might want to know. -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 20:36, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Vickers quote was the wrong citation. That cite showed the ineffectiveness of a number of Alternative Medicine Treatments. The article in the discussion section quoted several studies that supported approaches to palliation that were not discussed in the results section. The correct citations for this article would be the citations referenced by the paper. If the papers are valid it would make a nice addition to this article. Kd4ttc 15:24, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Check out Alternative medicine. All my citations reference the abstract or the full text of the research paper online. The citation that I referenced here provided the full text of the research paper online. I made a direct quote from it. You guys managed to destroy a direct quote. Totally amazing, yet totally predictable. -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 02:00, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)