Talk:Objectivist philosophy

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Contents

1 Removing the Simplification 2 Simplification request 3 Overall Article Quality 4 Criticisms Section 5 Philwelch's latest edit 6 Metaphysics, Epistemology and Morality 7 Alright watchers of this article, let's get started! 8 Introduction 9 Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of philosophy! 10 Deleted section 10.1 Criticisms of Objectivist scholarship 11 Libertarian sidebar 12 Spinoffs 13 Wikipedia & Objectivism

Removing the Simplification

The summary of the basic concepts was removed because, according to philwelch, he already wrote a 'better' summary like this and it was taken off. I don't know why it was removed, and perhaps he should have put his old one back as a replacement. My summary was added because the previous intro, all of which still existed under the summary, was basically unreadable to someone who didn't already know every thing about Objectivism and study it as a pass time like ourselves. Unless I get a reasonable argument, or, philwelch brings back his old basic summary that was taken back, I'm putting my extremely simplified one back at the top. (I stole most of it from the 'Ayn Rand' page and was told that there's nothing wrong with having it on two pages.)D prime 22:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The one I wrote was a direct quote from Ayn Rand. It was removed on the grounds that lists aren't the best way to communicate the information. I took a shot at rephrasing the paragraph that summarizes the content of her philosophy, but if anyone else can do a better job I invite them to. — Phil Welch 22:36, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about we use quotes as a more complicated summary, and, in paragraph form, proceed it with a simpler one?D prime 02:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why? We really don't need more than one summary. — Phil Welch 03:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They wont be formatted to look very seperate, but we need a more simplistic statement of Objectivism overall so that people who aren't philsophy nerds understand it.207.35.188.13 18:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What's so difficult to understand about it as-is? — Phil Welch 18:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was slightly hard to understand if you weren't already aware of Objectivism or philosophy in general. Some one added a paragraph to the top to clarify. Thanks!D prime 01:22, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Simplification request

Wow, this is an in-depth page. I know nothing about objectivism, and I'm afraid I'm non the wiser after looking at this page. Perhaps those of you who know a lot about the subject could try to make a very simple definition so uninformed people have a vague idea of what objectivism basically is? And it seems to me that people without specialist knowledge would find browsing this page very difficult.

I'm going to add or change the opening into a more easily understood version, unless I have any reasonable complaints here. What do you think? ~ D-PRIME (The Anti-Libertarian Sidebar Guy, any one want to tell me how to make a signature?)

You do it by adding four tilades in a row like this '~ ~ ~ ~' except w/o the spaces, I have no objection to changes. Crazynas 11:44, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

I fancy my self a Randroid and would like to drastically change the intro, as to make it more comprehensible for some one who doesn't study Objectivism as a hobby. I find that the basic concept is better put in the Ayn Rand article, but I don't want to repeat the same couples of paragraphs in different articles; in fact, I don't want to reword them either. How would one feel if I took the short summary on Rand's ideas out of the Ayn Rand article, put it in the intro to this one, and replaced the space in the Rand article with a normal English summary, opposed to laid-out point-form like the one I'd be moving here. I should probably do it with as little deletion as possible. Does any one, especially people who have worked on the intro in the past, have any input? I don't want to go arbitrarily changing the beginning of a large article too bluntly.D prime 04:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead. be bold. I agree the article is currently useless for people who don't already know it. See what you can do to make it better. Dave (talk) 02:18, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I will do so later tonight. Sorry for the delay.D prime 22:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I finally changed the intro to include a basic summary of Objectivism. Does any one have any suggestions as far as how/if I should include basic summarys at the beggining of each subject?D prime 15:00, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Overall Article Quality

The entire article is confused. Most sections are filled with what appears to be Objectivist jargon, which has not been defined or identified anywhere in the article. This is not ok. This is not a meeting place for objectivist experts, nor an area for debate and answering of objections, but an article in a reference work.

It may be that Objectivism is in fact as confused and poorly stated as this article is. However, I choose to suspend my believe that a philosophy of this quality could possibly attract as many followers as Objectivism seems to have attracted. I propose that the article be restarted from scratch, and the length and quality of edits be carefully monitored to prevent the abomination that is there currently from coming back. No one with even the slightest education in philosophy could seriously propose what is found in this article.--Ltbarcly 23:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this is not a proper forum for debate about the merits of Objectivism. The function of the article should be: an accurate presentation of the philosophy, end of story. That said, it is unrealistic to expect that any systematic philosophy is going to be persuasively presented in a few thousand words. A systematic philosophy — one with integrated theories in metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and art — will create new concepts and consequently have both new terminology and new perspectives on many fundamental ideas. What we should hope for is that the article presents the essentials of the philosophy and the most significant philosophic and practical consequences in a way that reflects the worldview of that philosopher. With this, interested readers can proceed farther by looking to more lengthy sources. Gyrae 06:09, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms Section

I think that the criticisms section should be rewritten as a summary of all significant, published criticisms of Objectivism as a philosophy. Criticisms of Objectivism as a movement would go to the much-needed Objectivist movement article while personal criticisms of Ayn Rand would go to the Ayn Rand article. The main exposition here needs some significant improvement too--it's been very much messed with.

The Criticisms section should not catalogue every conceivable difference between Objectivism and every other philosophy, religion, worldview, or personal opinion in existence. It should not be a dumping ground for "Wikipedians' critiques of Objectivism". The criticisms section is a train wreck as it is. Similarly, will you people stop making unilateral decisions as to whether or not it's even in the article?

I'll work on an edit of the criticisms section. Y'all argue and vote here about whether or not we have it in the main article. I no longer care, but I'll help enforce whatever we agree on.

Philwelch 09:40, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You know, I think what we REALLY need to do is merge the Bibliography into this article, with extended summary of the relevant critiques. Philwelch 10:12, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that it makes sense to have a (brief) section on (significant) criticisms of the philosophy -- and that discussion of the movement, whether pro or con, belong in a separate article (because a movement is not part of the contents of a philosophy). Gyrae 00:24, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I looked at several other philosophy articles (e.g. Platonism, Aristotle, Scholasticism, Thomism, Kantianism, Pragmatism and Existentialism). If these have a criticism section at all, it is brief and plain. Given the length of this article on Objectivism and the fact that criticism of a philosophy is not per se part of the philosophy, I recommend that we follow the practice of the other articles, and either abbreviate to a size similar to that in Existentialism, move it to a separate article, or eliminate it as in Platonism and Kantianism. Thoughts? --Gyrae 19:27, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

I've reformed the Criticisms section into a Response section (as some parts of it weren't and aren't actually criticisms) and deleted stuff that clearly wasn't attributable to any given critique of Objectivism. The rest might have to be changed and moved back to the Bibliography. Philwelch 20:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Which I've done. Philwelch 20:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

I don't understand what a section on "Criticism of Rand's reading of the history of philosophy" is doing in an article about Objectivism. Isn't that something like having a section criticizing Einstein's political views in an article on his Theory of Relativity? I suggest that it be moved to the Ayn Rand page. Serge 19:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Philwelch's latest edit

Philwelch, can I ask why you removed St Augustine from the primary of consciousness discussion (I didn't put him in, but still wonder why you removed him; why you removed "and the role of" from Epistemology:reason (which makes it look as though they are the same thing); and why you removed "what she called" from "what she called objective reality", because as you know this phrase is fraught with difficulty, and to leave it there without a quote and without a definition makes either Rand or the authors of this article look stupid. If it's what Rand called it, then "what she called" is accurate. You also removed my insertion that Kantian scholars would dispute Rand's view of Kant; and instead just removed his name entirely, even though Rand listed him as an idealist. I'd appreciate if you'd explain your problems with my edit. Slim 21:18, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I'll justify the changes I made.

Augustine: In terms of the axiom of self-consciousness, I think we only need to cite one philosopher as an example. Descartes is the more famous example. The article flows better when we don't spend as much space on these digressions.

Agreed.

Objective reality: Again, this was for stylistic reasons, although if you notice I placed the term "objective" in quotes so it reads: grounded in "objective" reality. Obviously, an explanation of what this "objective" reality follows, in the section on metaphysics.

Don't agree with this change. If you put it in quotation marks, you're suggesting it's a quote and you have to attribute it. Scare quotes aren't really appropriate for an encyclopedia, I'd say. It's a lot easier to say "what she called objective reality." Objective reality is a phrase that few, if any, philosophers would use nowadays because it's pretty meaningless.

I still don't like the way yours flows. This article has too much stuttering and qualification as it is, adding a phrase like "what she called" is inadvisable. So, I changed it to "grounded in reality". It's NPOV because the grammar of the sentence clearly states "She characterizes it as...grounded in reality", which is indeed factual. Philwelch 10:18, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The title "Epistemology: reason" (as well as the titles Metaphysics: objective reality, Ethics: self-interest, Politics: capitalism) comes from a rather-famous incident where Rand was asked to summarize the basics of Objectivism while standing on one foot. In other words, they are the titles Rand used to denote the four main branches of her philosophy. "Reason" is the term Rand used to describe the Objectivist epistemology, although it is certainly far different from what, say, a classical rationalist would call "reason". This point should be clarified in the main text.

Yes, point taken.

As for Kant, Rand's poor interpretation of Kant may be worthy of note somewhere, but in the context of an explanation of Objectivist philosophy, it is merely a distraction. This is another case of an unnecessary digression disrupting the flow of the article and distracting the reader from, well, what the article is supposed to be about. The article flows far better without it. Philwelch 01:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also, agreed.

Thanks for your explanation, Phil. Slim 02:04, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Phil, I much prefer "grounded in reality." Thanks for changing it and for checking that I was okay with it. Very decent of you. Best, Slim 21:17, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Metaphysics, Epistemology and Morality

Objectivism is not "metaphysics, epistemology and morality combined". Objectivist Morality is implied from Objectivist Metaphysics and Epistemology. Had reality been different, Morality would have changed accordingly. Avi.aharon 17:40, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Alright watchers of this article, let's get started!

Lot's of talk, little action. I propose we make a modest start by fixing the intro. Currently:

Objectivism is the name chosen by Ayn Rand for her philosophy. She characterizes it as a philosophy "for living on earth": grounded in reality, and aimed at facilitating knowledge of the natural world and harmonious, mutually beneficial interactions between human beings.

Broadly speaking, Objectivism combines a realist, empiricist, secular, naturalistic orientation in metaphysics and epistemology with an egoistic ethics of human flourishing and a social philosophy of capitalism and individual liberty.

One major theme of Objectivist philosophy is a focus on the potential of the individual human being...

Honestly, have we really said anything at all at this point? Not really! Maybe nihilism doesn't focus on the potential of the human being, but most other philosophies do. Most philosophies are for "living on earth", eg the late Bernard Williams who seriously wondered "What does it mean to live well?". I'm not saying we can't mention these points, i'm just saying that they don't help us newcomers much, who are wondering, "What the hell is objectivism? I remembering hearing about subjectivism..how come i've never heard of this?". I think it might help to start a bit with subjectivism, something peopl are are familiar with, and then contrast it with objectivism. WARNING: I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT!

Proposed start (edit the crap out of this!)

Objectivist philosophy, often simply called "Objectivism", was introduced by the novelist and philosopher Ayn Rand in the middle of the 20th century. The antithesis to subjectivism, in which a person's conception of reality can be influenced by their thoughts and feelings, Rand's philosophy states that reality is that which we see in the world around us, and exists just as it is regardless of individual perceptions and judgements. This nature-centric way of thinking about the universe, alongside a focus on man's ability to reason, led Rand to what she considered to be an ideal way of "living on earth". <to be continued>

--Alterego 07:07, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Objectivism wasn't formulated to be "opposed to" subjectivism. I'll see what I can do. Philwelch 08:02, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hey Philwelch. No offense, but that first section is looking really bad. Can't we muster up a couple of introductory and light overview paragraphs? Lists are not a good way to go, and especially not a good way to describe a philosophy! Regarding the above, I changed it to 'antithesis' to be less ambiguous (also maybe antonym, diametric), but still, objective IS the antonym of subjective (http://www.synonym.com/synonym/index.php). Can we start with the above, reword anything that is not precisely correct, and hopefully end with a couple of nice paragraphs? w:The Perfect Article states, "Begins with a definition or clear description of the subject at hand. This is made as absolutely clear to the nonspecialist as the subject matter itself will allow. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to codify human knowledge in a way that is most accessible to the most people, and this demands clear descriptions of what the subject matter is about. So we aren't just dropped into the middle of the subject from the first word—we are eased into it. --Alterego 18:21, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

"Objectivism" is a proper noun which refers specifically to the philosophy of Ayn Rand. In fact, the clearest concise definition of Objectivism is that it is the philosophy of Ayn Rand. It's hard to come up with a better concise summary, although Ayn Rand managed to do so standing on one foot. The fact that "objective" is an antonym of "subjective" is only marginally relevant, and then again, only in the way explained by the exposition on the trichotomy between the "intrinsic", the "subjective", and the "objective". I think your warning that "I don't know what the hell I'm talking about" is, to put it bluntly, all that had to be said. Philwelch 22:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, it's not just against the idea that that one can change one's conception of reality. Rather, it's against the conception that one can change reality through thought alone AND against the concept that there is no objective reality. - Loweeel 15:57, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No need to get snarky is there? I guess I understand if you are unable to write a couple of clear paragraphs about what Objectivism is. That said, i'll keep working on it. Since my roommate is an Objectivist, and the bookshelf in my living room has pretty much all of Rand's works, it shouldn't be that big of a deal for me to figure it all out from the ground up. I'm mainly interested turning what should be two nice and clearly understandable paragraphs into just that, rather than four paragraphs, a quote, and two lists! I guess it would suffice to say i'm a little dissapointed though... --Alterego 06:54, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

We should get Jimbo to come in and take care of this problem :) --Alterego 06:56, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Fine, I wrote a second paragraph in the opening. Are you happy now? Philwelch 19:07, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

As, er...demanded by popular demand, I've started some major work on the article, rewriting the intro (I bailed out and let old Ayn do the part of actually summarizing Objectivism) and split Objectivist movement into a separate article. Anything else anyone wants done? Philwelch 08:20, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of philosophy!

Seeing as Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and not an encyclopedia of philosophy, we should avoid writing in "philosophy-geek" in favor of plain English wherever possible, especially in say, the opening, where the basic subject matter should be comprehensible to those outside the field. If we must slip into philosophic jargon later in the article we can do that, but the main (and, frankly, most spot-on) criticism of this article is that it's incomprehensible to the roughly 99% of the internet-viewing population that does not consist of philosophy geeks. I'm a philosophy geek myself, as is, I suppose, everyone who bothers to edit philosophy articles. But philosophical jargon is only understood by philosophy geeks, with the effective result of holding back information from the unwashed. Unfortunately, this runs exactly counter to the purpose of Wikipedia. Philwelch 00:27, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's often not understood by philosophy geeks either. My own view is that, if philosophy geekery can't be translated into ordinary language, there's a good chance it's meaningless. (I'm excluding logic from that generalization, but I'm thinking particularly of philosophy of mind, metaphysics, ethics, and theory of knowledge). SlimVirgin 00:33, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Good edits. --Gyrae 04:04, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

The intro is looking a lot better now. A couple things; I don't think starting the second paragraph of a long entry with "in summary" works. Also, describing objectivism as "existence exists" is going to get a newbie confused with Existentialism. "Existentialism is a philosophical movement emphasizing individualism, individual freedom, and subjectivity." On those lines, we are pretty much OK up until that subjectivity part :) "Objectivism emphasizes actuality?" or how about "Objectivism emphasizes reality?"--Alterego 04:27, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

(libertarian sidebar issue moved to end)

Deleted section

The following deleted section has little to do with Objectivism and much to do with Ayn Rand's own understanding of other philosophers. I have removed it and placed it here in case someone wants to transplant the content into Ayn Rand. Philwelch 20:20, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In Ayn Rand's work, the criticism of other philosophers, especially Kant, is an integral part of her own philosophizing -- it sets the problems that she believed she has solved. She believed, in short, that the problems of the modern world are philosophic problems, i.e. the uncritical acceptance of Kantianism (as she understood it) and that the world can be vastly improved (turned into one big Galt's Gulch) by the acceptance of her own philosophy. So criticism of her scholarship is not a separate issue from criticism of her philosophy, and this should be acknowledged to properly round out this article. --Christofurio 13:39, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

In theory, perhaps. In practice, you've done a very half-assed job of it and it makes the article look like a mess. Philwelch 21:17, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Very little of it is "mine" -- and I'm not going to muck about in the page history right now to find out who deserves proper authorial credit. I'm simply exercising my editorial prerogative to judge that it makes the article better than its arbitrary exclusion. Feel free to improve. --Christofurio 13:31, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were the supreme editor of Wikipedia. I thought we followed a collaborative process. I've managed to improve your addition by actually putting it in the right place and making the content actually conform to the heading. Philwelch 20:27, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, You and I are equally supreme in our respective supreme editorships. My re-introduction of this material was neither more nor less collaborative than your initial decision to delete it. I appreciate your new tact, though. --Christofurio 20:32, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms of Objectivist scholarship

Especially in the title essay of her early work, For the New Intellectual, Rand levels serious accusations against canonical historical philosophers, especially David Hume, Immanuel Kant, G. W. F. Hegel, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Herbert Spencer. In her later book, Philosophy: Who Needs It?, she repeats and enlarges upon her criticisms of Kant, and she also accuses famed Harvard political theorist John Rawls of gross philosophical errors. Some have accused Rand of misinterpreting the works of these (and other) philosophers. And some have faulted Rand for failing to provide documentation to support her interpretation of these philosophers' views.

In particular, Rand is criticized for her reading of Immanuel Kant, whose philosophy she frequently denigrates as the opposite of Objectivism. Some critics take issue with Rand's interpretation of Kant's metaphysics: like early critics of Kant, Rand interprets Kant as an absolute idealist. It is a long-standing question of Kant scholarship whether this interpretation is correct; in the second edition of the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant claimed that his transcendental idealism was different from absolute idealism. Contemporary philosophers such as Jonathan Bennett, James van Cleve, and Rae Langton continue to debate this issue.

Other critics focus on Rand's reading of Kant's ethical philosophy. Rand alleges that Kantian ethics is a version of altruism, an ethics of self-sacrifice. Kant's defenders claim that Kantian ethics is primarily an ethics of reason, because the categorical imperative amounts to a demand that the intent behind one's actions be logically consistent, or in Kantian terminology, that "the maxim of one's act be universalizable." In Rand's favor, Kant clearly does maintain (in his Groundwork for the Metaphyiscs of Morals) that an action motivated by inclination or self-interest is entirely lacking in moral worth. Still, fewer commentators have agreed with Rand's characterization of Kantianism as self-sacrificial. The contemporary philosopher Thomas E. Hill has explicitly defended Kant against this charge in his article, "Happiness and Human Flourishing in Kant's Ethics," in the anthology Human Flourishing.

Libertarian sidebar

Why is there a bar on the side linking Objectivism with Libertarianism, one is a philosophy and one is a political position (with a variety of philosophical backgrounds) Crazynas 04:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The libertarianism article (and especially its spinoff, Libertarianism and Objectivism) have a bunch of information about the relationship between the two. Libertarianism is heavily influenced by Objectivism, with most libertarians having been introduced to their current position by objectivism. If you don't want the sidebar here, ya'all can agree to take it off of this page. Dave 04:44, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

I thought about it, and decided to remove the sidebar. While Objectivism is important to libertarians, libertarianism is relatively unimportant to objectivists. Dave 05:14, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Other than the insane hard-core Leonard Peikoff types, most of us *are* libertarians. Philwelch 05:18, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to piss off the Randroids :-). Hopefully the current version with a sub-subheader on Rand's influence on Libertarianism will work. Dave 05:38, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense to have the section at the bottom about how it has affected libertarianism, but Objectivism is not libertarianism, and an actual Objectivist is not a libertarian. It shouldn't be part of the 'libertarian' series.

This is an issue of controversy among Objectivists (touched upon in "Libertarianism and Objectivism"), but there is plenty of reason to have the sidebar. Philwelch 20:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The term 'Objectivism' in this context is refering to Rand's philosophy. What ever she describes it as is what it is, just like there's no 'debate' on the definition of the meaning of the word 'too'.

Objectivism could be considered alike to Libertarianism, but it is in no way factually affiliated with it. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians I see absolutely no controversy as to whether the 'Philosophy of Ayn Rand' as it is put in the beggining of the article is affiliated with libertarianism. She said that she has more respects for Marxists, which means that you could more accurately put this page in the 'communist series'.

I recommend that you read the libertarianism and Objectivism article (or any of the sources listed there), which address your concern. Also, signing your posts with ~~~~ makes communicating easier. It's okay if you forget occassionally (I know I do) but try to make it a habit. Dave (talk) 04:40, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

They're just anonymous, and probably Randroid POV-mongers. Anyone who understands the content of both Objectivism and libertarianism understands that Objectivism is libertarian, any statements to the contrary having the same meaning as "A is not A". That's probably a POV statement, but it's as least as commonly held and valid as the Randroid POV, so the sidebar is obviously in place here. Besides, regardless of whether Rand personally approved of the libertarian movement, she influenced it, and Objectivism is a topic very, very clearly related to libertarianism, whether Rand wanted it or not. (I also hasten to add two things. First, Ayn Rand tells you to think for yourself. Ayn Rand doesn't tell you to take Ayn Rand quotes as gospel (although she certainly thinks that if you think for yourself, you will agree with her!) Second, Ayn Rand's personal opinions are not necessarily part of Objectivism. If Ayn Rand, at some point, said "I like fudge," that doesn't mean liking fudge is part of Objectivism. Philwelch 05:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If Ayn Rand said "Every one should like fudge." it would be part of Objectivism. I don't like fudge, but I would agree with her in the fact that she likes fudge. She has stated that if you disagree with any thing she has written, you are not an Objectivist. She did influence it, but she has influenced a lot of things. It isn't a series of articles that influenced each other. It's a series of articles that are on the same political basis. Libertarians prefer a smaller government, while Objectivsts don't think that politics is some thing that you can have a preference for, and see it as a branch of their philsophical basis. She did tell people to think for themselves, which means using your own rational judgement, which can be used to decide that she is right. She was not a fan of 'fashionable non-conromists' which she launched an assault on. It is fair to say that 'Randroids' are too extreme, but we are exactly who you should listen to when it comes to defining the 'philosophy of Ayn Rand'

If you think "Randroids" have a monopoly on Objectivism, you may want to read work by self-described objectivists that disagree with you like Nathaniel Branden (whom Rand said knew more about Objectivism than anyone but her) or by David Kelley, who runs the Objectivist Center. The number of people influenced by Objectivism greatly exceeds the number of orthodox Objectivists (according to Branden), so those people would be interested in Objectivism as an "open" philosophy that can move beyond Rand herself than the version promoted by the Ayn Rand Institute, and would therefore be interested in her influence in other areas.

As a side-note, I think you're mistaken about Objectivist politics. She did advocate a specific political program, had specific views about what her ideal political reality would look like, and advocated some specific policies in the short-term like school vouchers and a switch to the Gold standard. Dave (talk) 15:50, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. If some one told a Libertarian that having a smaller government was only "Their opinion", they would say "Yes. What's your opinion?" If some one told an Objectivist that lassiez-faire capitalism was only "Their opinion", the Objectivst would go "No, it's true.". This is because of the philosophical basis of Objectivism. What Brandien believes in is not Objectivism; it is a seperate philosophy based on Objectivism. Ayn Rand, whose philsophy is what you're describing, said that he isn't, and the philsophy is simply what she says. If you think agreeing with her completely is too extreme, go ahead, but it isn't Objectivism. If communists suddenly started calling them selves Objectivists, and there was more of them, you wouldn't say that the 'Philsophy of Ayn Rand' was communism. I suggest that another article is made for 'Open-Objectivism', which would include the Libertarian sidebar. Note: she said that before he seperated and became a Libertarian. Any one, of any political orientation, could objectively (no pun intended) know about Objectivism, and it doesn't affect their validity. ~

First, you're wrong about the "opinion versus fact" distinction. Try telling Lew Rockwell that his views are "just opinions" and see what happens, if you don't believe me. The fact that Branden and the Objectivist center, as well as countless thousands of others, call themselves Objectivists without adhering to every one of its dogmas is sufficent to include them. An example would be telling Christian that doesn't hate homosexuals (e.g. a member of the United Church of Christ) that he's not a Christian or a Reform Jew that she's not a Jew because they don't adhere to every commandment. Given that Branden still knows more about Objectivism than you do and considers it a framework rather than a set of commandments, I think you're in a bit of a hole. Dave (talk) 02:45, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

A libertarian *could* say that, because there's no philsophical basis; a libertarian could say it's just opinion or that it's all fact. Any one can *call* themselves an Objectivists; Josef Stalin could have, like I explained above. But Objectivism as you're defining it here is the philsophy of Ayn Rand, so we have to go based on what she said. If Jesus Christ once said that 'To be a Christian, and to get to God through me, you must hate homosexuality.' then that would be a neccessary part of Christianity. Rand did in fact say that have to agree with every thing. It's irrelavent how much Branden knows. Ayn Rand would back me up here, I can quote her with refernces, and I think she trumps Branden when it comes to Objectivism. Ayn Rand said that if you disagree with any of it, it isn't Objectivism. In order to define it as any thing else, you would have to stop opening the article with "the philsophy of Ayn Rand." It would even be okay if you kept the side bar and said Objectivism is "A philosophical system based on the writing of Ayn Rand.", but that wouldn't look too nice, and it would probably be much better if you made another article for "Neo-Objectivism"; I'll make it my self, if neccessary, and it will get you take the Libertarian bar off the page of a philsophy created by some one who bashed Libertarianism.

There is already an articles on Neo-objectivism. A few points, though:

1. Objectivism is opposed to "semantic mysticism". Something is what it is. Any ideology that supports property rights and limitation of government power, while opposing the initiation of force, is a libertarian ideology. Objectivism fits those criteria.
2. Ayn Rand said that the failure to call something what it is is just that. If Ayn Rand had issues with the libertarian movement of her time, that is her prerogative. If she ever attempted to flat-out say that "Objectivism is opposed to libertarianism", she would be making a false statement.
3. All of Rand's statements about libertarianism talk about libertarianism qua political movement, not libertarianism qua political ideology. Rand's opposition to the libertarian movement has been duly noted--her influence and relevance to libertarian ideology has been clearly established as well.
4. Libertarian political ideology can come about from several philosophical bases (plural of "basis"). However, one of the single biggest, most popular, most important bases that libertarians rest upon is Objectivism, Rand's personal opinion of the libertarian movement 20-30 years ago notwithstanding. Philwelch 00:47, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've edited the sidebar to make it more clear where Objectivism stands with regard to libertarianism. Philwelch 00:51, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Only good argument that I've come across here. Fair enough.

Spinoffs

In my opinion, few readers will want to see the line-by-line details of working out objectivist epistemology unless they're willing to click on objectivist epistemology, rather than just "objectivism." Most non-objectivists are interested in the ethics and politics part. I spun off metaphysics and epistemology for this reason. I hope both can be expanded again on this page, but in more of an overview rather than a list of random tenets of objectivism listed one-by-one. Dave 06:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

• Why not then, just have all of the branches of Objectivist philosophy (metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics, esthetics) as separate sub articles, with a synopsis on the main page? Crazynas 21:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia & Objectivism

We should have smelled Ms. Rand's what-it-ain't from a mile away. Much of modern internet discourse has a bit of the Randian reek about it--this idea of objectivity keeps popping, and Derrida is not merely giggling in his grave.

The Wikipedia proviso against "original" research is not worthy of being described as "patently absurd"--it rests on the assumption of originality, which is an a priori and obscenely Randian construction, although who knows if Rand can be held primarily repsonsible for its currency in contemporary discourse. Saying that we may not include "original research" is as worthy of ridicule as saying we can't include derivative research--it is, to put it rather bluntly, a useless duality that never even existed, from a Derridean perspective. That such Randian bally-hoo would be official policy at Wikipedia is not only unsurprising--it also what John Donne would have called "oderiferous."

There would have to be a thorough reconstruction of originality, in these the days of Derrida's roaring guffaw, in order for Wikipedia's ban on original research to be worth reading. It quite simply is nonsense. What is unoriginal research? What do you want we should do, cite references? Do you want us to start signing our contributions? Are we getting hung up on names here, on who researched what and what the value of said research is and is not? Does a general theory of Wikipedia allow for good research, with all this name-dropping and anti-hierarchical talk of including only "published" research? Is it not publish the moment it is posted on Wikipedia?

Someone help us--we need an all-inclusive, Cartesian maxim about the nature of human knowledge to get through this, shall we say, bumpy spot on the trail.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say: what the fuck? Philwelch 03:40, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John Donne used "oderiferous"? Maybe this was the context....

No man is an island But if you're odoriferous Please put some water between us --Christofurio 21:37, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

As a Randroid-Objectivist who spends way too much time on this site, I suggest that we um.. delete this non-sensicle topic?D prime 14:46, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, who is this uncouth clown ? The same person who posted derogatory comments on the article before someone else reversed it ? Bad show, wot ? Franc28 05:08, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)