Talk:New Netherland

From Academic Kids

The name New Netherland, without the -s, is correct. In the original Dutch, the name is, in different spellings, 'Nieu Nederlandt', always singular. And, oh, let's please leave out $24. The payment was sixty guilders, presumably in trade goods. There is no need to exchange the amount, especially not using a mid-nineteenth century exchange rate. -- Jaap Jacobs

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This article seems to be a double of New Netherlands. I've seen the name without an -s before in other sources. Does anybody know which one is correct and why? -- User:Jheijmans

Just one article, New Netherlands is redirected to New Netherland. The latter has a few more hits on google, but since it's a translation of Nieuw Nederland it's not surprising that the spelling varies. Either one is "correct". In fact the Dutch spelling varies too, e.g., at the time Nieuw Nederlandt or Nieu Nederlandt.

If the trading stations were consolidated in 1621, when were they established? --rmhermen

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The sale of Manhattan is very poorly documented, as far as I know. Can the following be traced to a reliable source?:

For example, the people from whom Minuit "bought" Manhattan did not live on the island, and probably thought that they were selling a share in the hunting rights.

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belatedly addressing the above question (from last July?)

There *is* disagreement about this but a study by C.A. Weslager in 1961 provides, I believe, very persuasive evidence that the Dutch began with three settlements in the early 1620s:

1)"Fort Orange" near Albany,

2) a fort on the large island near Burlington, NJ, and

3) a fort near the mouth of the Connecticut River.

It appears that at first Burlington island was most promising and the governor's residence was established there, but, after a year or so, forces were consolidated at Manhattan. Later the Dutch established another fort in the Delaware, further downstream, near present-day Gloucester, called Fort Nassau and this was later used to challenge Sweden's attempts to colonize the lower Delaware.

But to your question: Apparently the purchase of Manhattan may have predated Minuit's arrival (contradicting the story in all of our old textbooks that Miuit "bought Manhattan Island for $24!). And yes, it is pretty clear that buying land for exclusive ownership was a baffling concept for the Native Americans for the first several decades at least. The presents were interpreted as customary greeting gifts to establish good will and facilitate good-feeling and co-existence, rather than as any kind of purchase price for real property.

When Minuit arrived (at Burlington I.) the previous governor had just been overthrown and indicted (or convicted locally)for corruption or misrule and was to be sent back to Europe. Minuit was thereupon 'appointed' to take over as governor of the colony (apparently not his original aim in coming) and he affected the population transfer to Manhattan (somewhere between 1624 and 1626?).

After I review this material further and make some notes I will undertake a revision of this page.

reference: Weslager, Clinton Alfred, Dutch explorers, traders, and settlers in the Delaware Valley, 1609-1644. Philadelphia, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1961.

ArloBee 00:42 27 May 2003 (UTC)

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The names Nova Belgica (from Gallia Belgica, the Roman province) and Novi Belgii have both been used, should we mention that? There seem to has been a mix up quite early in history between the names Belgica and Belgium -- moyogo 16:39, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)

Novi Belgii is the genitive of Novum Belgium; the plural of the latter would have been Novi Belgia - never used as far as I know.

MWAK--84.27.81.59 15:54, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So the Novi Belgii part in the name of Image:Map-Novi Belgii Novæque Angliæ (Amsterdam, 1685).jpg is for "(map) of New Belgium" or something of the sort? --- moyogo

Exactly! :o) - just as Novæque Angliæ in this case (confusingly here the plural is identical to the genitive singular) means "and of New England" (Nova Anglia). The map is called tabula. Of course it might seem even more correct to use the standard word order and speak of Belgium Novum, but even in Antiquity this usage was common, as shown by names as Neapolis, Nova Carthago etc. You want to lure settlers by stressing everything is brand new...;o)

--84.27.81.59 10:33, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Latin phrase "Tabula Novi Belgii Novæque Angliæ" can be analyzed thus: "Tabula" = "map," with suffix indicating subject of the sentence, female gender. "Novum Belgium" = "New Belgium," spelled as if it were the subject of a sentence, neuter gender. (Adjective's suffix must match that of the noun it's modifying.) "Novi Belgii" = "New Belgium," with suffixes for genetive (possessive) case (map "of" New Belgium). (In the 17th Century, the lowland (Nether-land) provinces, Belgium and Luxembourg -- "BeNeLux" -- were united in their fight with Spain, much like US's 13 colonies. Catholic Belgium broke away peacefully later.) "Nova Anglia" = "New England," spelled as if it were the subject of a sentence, female gender. (Why Belgium is neuter and Anglia is female is a question I leave for the next buttinsky.) "que" = "and" -- not a word but a suffix attached to the last item in a list strung together with "and". "Novæque Angliæ" = "and of New England," with suffixes for genetive (possessive) case. (Why not "Novæ Angliæque"? That would be "New and England.") Now write it 100 times. -- Rick Wolff

Your Latin is excellent, but your analysis contains some factual inexactitudes. It suggests that already in the 17th century the name Belgium was used for the south alone, but then it was simply Latin for The Netherlands (itself meaning the Low Countries - all of them). The split between the Northern and Southern Netherlands was far from peaceful. The 17th century border - which is largely the present-day one - is simply a frontline. In 1815 the Low Countries were again reunited but after the Second French Revolution of 1830 there was an armed insurrection in the south. The Dutch army marched south to subdue the rebellion but was defeated by a French expedition force. Peace was only signed in 1839.

MWAK--84.27.81.59 09:02, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

is "factorijs" the correct plural?

"inland forts was to serve as fur trading outposts, called factorijs (factories)."

Being Dutch, I know that "factorij" is a Dutch word, and means trading outpost, but I think the plural form is factorijen. Was it spelled factorijs in the 17th century?

Yes. Both the -n and -s plurals existed for most words, standardisation only began later. User:Anárion/sig 16:07, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Nowadays factorijs is NOT correct, so I suggest this should be changed to "factorijen".

The thing is they were probably called factorijs back then. If it is the case we should mention it, as well as the fact that's it's 17th century Dutch. ---moyogo 12:33, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

Well, search google for factorijs; you'll only find this wikipedia article, and copies of it. The amount of results for "factorijen" make me think that "factorijen" is correct.

I've changed it. Factorijs -> factorijen