Talk:Muscovy

Another example of "we were only defending ourselves" propaganda by Russians. Official language of Lithuania was Rusin. Kisiel, Rusin magnate was in Polish senate. Wisniowiecki was polonized Rusin. What political, ethnic and religious oppression was suffered by Ukrainians, compared to other ethnic groups in other countries? I would say they had it better under Polish rule and that's why they later signed Union of Halicz. szopen

Er...what triggered this comment? Graham Chapman

In 1648 most of Ukrainian society joined the Cossacks in a revolt because of the political, social, religious, and ethnic oppression suffered under Polish rule.

Ok, i overreacted a bit.

• Political: peasants nowhere in Europe had political rights.
• Social: peasants in all Central-Eastern Europe, with Russia included (after Perejslaw too) were oppressed and leaders of uprising don't care much about peasants too.
• religious: well, although level of tolerance in Poland in 1648 was still bigger than in most states of Europe, this is true that tolerance was lowered. But still orthodox can believe anything they want and their beliefs never were any obstacles.
• ethnic: Everyone, who was noble, had the same political rights. Everyone who was not, hadn't. Simple. Nothing to do with ethnicity, although it's true that most of noblemen was slowly polonized (but they weren't forced to do that!) so on Ukraine slowly situation came to point, were most of nobles was Polonized. szopen

Now I see. Overreactions are sometimes useful (I have to say that, because I do it all the time!), and sweeping statements can be a problem. One of my tiny little worries about this material was its sort of classroom bias, where masses of social activity get condensed into 8 words because it was too hard to give a decent description.

You or others will probably rewrite it better than I, but for what it's worth I'll add it to my list to try and add some balance, either in this article or by separate articles on the other states and societies that existed in the area. Graham Chapman

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In the opener, the successor of Kievan Rus' on the northern lands of the empire, I need "empire" briefly disambiguated there: Byzantine? Wetman 20:23, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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User:Marcus2 has replaced Muscovy with Russia in a number of articles, such as this one, Peter the Great and the Russian Empire, Imperial Russia, Boris Godunov. Is this a legitimate change? Or do they mean to refer to separate entities? I am not well-versed in this period. Rmhermen 22:09, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it is right replacement. The most precise denotion for the late mongol yuke times Russia is Muscovite Russia, but it is long. However, after reunification of Russia under Moscow (i.e. Muscovite) prince Ivan III the Great rule, "Muscovy" term was abandoned.

Please refer to Russian History Harmonization wiki project and participate there. However, Marcus2 is not participant of this project, he/she corrects the problem independently. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Drbug&action=edit&section=new)]] 09:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks but if it is complicated enough to need a "harmonization project" (I love that term.) I will leave it to ya. Rmhermen 13:14, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

No, absolutely incorrect! Before 1713 there was no state called Russia! There was a nation with a non-Slavic name (Finno-Ugric, perhaps) called "Muscovy" or "Moskva," formed by a Slavic kernel which assimilated a Finno-Ugric majority largely to speak the Old Church Slavonic language, which began as a state under Mongolian polity. In 1713, after gaining control of the Ruthenian regions of Belarus' and Kiev (Rus'propria or menora), Muscovy renamed itself "Russia," though it took Europe a while to accept the name change. In 1721, the name was changed again to the "Russian Empire." One might say, more generally (and with a broader perspective) "Russia, then called Muscovy. . ." There is no dispute that they are one and the same nation, though. Genyo 17:46, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is an invented story. The name "Russia" is not that young. Since Ivan the Terrible, or perhaps Ivan III, the Russian state no longer contained Moscow exclusively, so it was renamed Russia around that time. I'm siding with User:Drbug. Marcus2 13:14, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh, My God. Genyo means, the Whole World does know nothing about history of Russia, but only western Ukrainians and eastern Poles behold the Ancient Knowledge. I'm really tired by claims like this... :-( [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Drbug&action=edit&section=new)]] 09:16, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Russian Imperialism can be very blinding! Let the locals tell their own story! Their neighbors are not more qualified, even if they think they are! Genyo 01:56, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Genyo, do you really believe that the words of a western Ukrainian or eastern Pole outweighs the word of an admin of the Russian Wikipedia who is more qualified to know the history of his own homeland? Marcus2 23:10, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

dating

" In the 14th century, the grand princes of Muscovy began gathering Russian lands to increase the population and wealth under their rule. The most successful practitioner of this process was Ivan III (the Great; r. 1462-1505), who conquered Novgorod in 1478 and Tver' in 1485. " Should this sentence not begin with "in the 15th century"?

It's really the 14th century, because Simeon and Dimitry both lived in 14th century... Dimitry doubled territory contraolled by Moscow. Dr Bug  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Drbug&action=edit&section=new) (Volodymyr V. Medeiko) 16:13, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Time of Troubles needs love

That brief mention of "a patriotic revival" against the Poles doesn't even name the only two figures who rightfully deserved a monument on the Red Square! The rise of the militia led by Kuzma Minin and Dmitry Pozharsky is considered by many historians as the first time the Russians realized themselves a nation and acted to confirm it.

Time of Trouble section split to a new article

The section content was moved to a new article Time of Troubles. This is a common practice at wiki. When a section grows too large, or has a potential to expand, it's moved to a new article. For example, this happened to the History of Russia before - it was split into a number of articles. Time of Troubles was such a section, which would likely see a lot of improvements. Splitting the section into an article seemed justified. It's also not such a good idea to maintain the full data in two places, thus I reduced the section to a short summary. The duplication of text is not productive. Nothing was "stolen" as User:Ghirlandajo wrote. So, if you object to splitting of the section into a new article, please use this talk page to justify your objections. --Gene s 08:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I just think there is no need to snatch a section from a general article and insert it some other place. There's nothing extraordinary in the practice when some encyclopedia articles overlap and duplicate each other. The current edition of Britannica treats the Time of Troubles both in the History of Russia and in a separate article. It's not on to make the reader switch in the middle of reading Muscovy to the Time of Troubles. The article should be comprehesive, i.e. cover all the period of Muscovite history in equal detail. So please leave the Muscovy article as it is now. Ghirlandajo 10:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I recall that Library of Congress data may be used freely under condition of preserving its integrity. Therefore new additions should go to the Time of Troubles, taken from the EB 1911. Ghirlandajo 10:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The problem with duplication is just that - duplication. It's simply easier to maintain one good version of events than to maintain two versions in synch. Duplications seems to be a waste of effort for no gain. There is no malice, it's just convenience. Consider this: you made changes to Time of Troubles. Now it's different from the section in Muscovy. I.e. there are two slightly different versions of evens. The difference would drift bigger over time. I suggest we cull the section in Muscovy to a summary to avoid unnecessary duplication and wasted effort. This is Internet. It's easy to switch to a new article, and then to go back, unlike paper encyclopedia.

Regarding EB 1911. Its copyright has expired. It's now in public domain. The same applies to any materials from the Library of Congress once their copiright expires. As soon as the copyright expires, the work enters public domain. It no longer belongs to anybody. Nobody can claim any control over use (or misuse) of the work. --Gene s 10:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As best I can see, your main argument is that duplication would entail different versions of events. I see nothing criminal here. We cannot make the Wiki completely neutral. EB 1911 has been admired so much, because it was not neutral. "History of Russian" and "History of Poland" will always contain different versions of the same events. The more points of view the better, provided that there is no partisan bias in the articles. Ghirlandajo 11:03, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

We cannot make the Wiki completely neutral. True. But we can try. That's what WP:NPOV asks us to do. This is the basic principle and it should be followed. Forking articles according to--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:37, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) one's POV does not help in producing a NPOV version of events.

"History of Russian" and "History of Poland" will always contain different versions of the same events. that's exactly the thing we can avoid by using one article Time of Troubles and linking to it from two other places. As you correctly pointed out, currently there are three alternative versions of events. And it might increase, if, say History of Lithuania adds its own version. This is wrong because it wastes effort. The more points of view the better, provided that there is no partisan bias in the articles. yes, if they are in one article. But it's wrong to have three different articles with different account of events according to a specific POV. It voiolates wiki's basic princple WP:NPOV. --Gene s 11:30, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It is a normal Wikipedia process that when articles grow, they create their own subarticles, which previously could be a redirects or didn't exist at all. Often they are simple duplicates at first, but they are soon expanded. I expect the ToT subarticle to grow over time - surely it will one day be larger then 32kb and even now it has its own subarticles - well, related articles - like that on Dimitriads wars (btw, I invite you to read it and expand it, the battlebox is limited only to the First Dimitriad, for starters, and I'd love to read an article on the Moscow uprisings in 1606 and 1611). Finally, I expect that like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth article, the Muscovy article will eventully evolve into a description of a country, not just its history, and will have an entirely separate history section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:37, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)Insert non-formatted text here