Talk:Miracle
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I do not think that this material belongs in this article. It seems to better be suited for an article on writing, culture, drama, or something like that. RK 14:00, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
- In this view, miracles do not really occur. Rather, they are the product of creative story tellers. They use them to embellish a hero or incident with a theological flavor. Using miracles in a story allow characters and situations to become bigger than life, and to stir the emotions of the listener more than the mundane and ordinary.
- In the world of miracle, wonder and faith the imposssible become the possible. Through bravery and courage, charity, sacrifice and reason Good always triumps over evil. Deep inside each person is the longing to see the extraordinary, undenial, proof of goodness and divine love; and a personal desire for someone (perhaps even ourselves) to be special and possess wondrous powers to right wrongs for someone's benefit. Story tellers know miracle stories inspire wondrous deeds. Everyone wants to be a hero and bring about happiness. In these stories these deeds happen, dispelling doubt and uplifting faith.
- Critical science and history take a back seat. Those far outside the world of the artistic story teller have difficulty understanding: for them there is only fact and fiction. It is easy for modern people to stop believing. Many of our ancestors did not. They held on to miracles and optimism in very brutal times.
Doesn't seem here to be any sceptical view of miracles - either from atheist or Protestant point of view. Or indeed how Catholics view miracles claimed by other faiths.
Exile 11:53, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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Miracles and "Canonization"
Is it still true that one must have two miracles attributed to him/her (posthumously) based on appeals to his/her spirit to intervene in order to be considered for canonization as a saint? If so, does this belong in the article at some place?
Answer: Sometimes. Two posthumous miracles are required for canonization, unless the candidate was martyred for his faith (martyrs don't need miracles to become saints).
Rlquall 21:23, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The final section, particularly the last paragraph, is a bit preachy for my liking. I'd agree that a more sceptical view of miracles should be added to the article as a whole.
e03bf085 21:35, 1 Apr 2005 (BST)
40,000,000+ miracles
I quote the following from the Catholic part of the article: Since Adam and Eve set foot on the earth there have been an estimated 40,000,000+ miracles.
I come to the conclusion that you can't accurately calculate the number of miracles from the time of Genesis to the present. I believe that there is currently a growth of miracles taking place (especially in China at the moment). Is this number calculated for just the Catholic faith or for the whole of the Church? It's just I think that this number is rather small in ratio to the number of miracles which I have seen locally and I live in a very small country. Also you must consider the fact that God performs many spiritual wounds which can be counted as miracles as well. It has been reported from the house churches of China that 80% of Christians in the region are so in witness to miracles. At the time of me writing this there is well over 10 million Christians in the house churches and the current growth of the Church is 25,000 per day (taken from Mal Fletcher's book: The Pioneer Spirit, which can be purchased from Authentic).
Figures from the China house churches are quoted from the Back to Jerusalem web site http://www.backtojerusalem.com/
40,000,000+ miracles
My opinion is that the "40mm miracles comment" should either be expanded or deleted
The message below was posted to user Michael Hardy, who added the comment recently.
Michael
First of all, congratulations for working on so many good mathematics articles.
I am writing however about the entry "miracle", which you edited on 24 Jan 2005 (quote from your comment: "I'm putting back some material that an anonymous editor put here earlier, purporting to present a Catholic view. This time it is so labeled and appropriately formatted for Wikipedia.")
Among the comments added is the claim that 40 mm miracles are estimated to have happened, in the history of humankind. While I myself do not believe in miracles as a religious manifestation, I would be interested in knowing how this estimate has been arrived to. I actually think that the basis of this estimate are a required addition to the paragraph.
I also believe that if such an estimate can not be described in some further detail and (as much as possible) in an unbiased way, then maybe that comment should be removed, having no sources or further detailed explanation.
To clarify further: I am unbiased as to whether that comment should remain and be expanded, or should just be removed. However I am adamant that it should not remain unexpanded in its current state.
I will post this same comment in the entry's talk page, hoping to receive some illuminating comments from fellow wikipedians.
Regards, gintaras 23:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Request for sources: Catholic view of miracles
We definately need official sources for the many claims made in the new section on Catolic views of miracles. Wikipedia:Cite sources is one of our policies. For instance:
- Anyone can perform a miracle if he or she adheres to the following points. Really? Anyone can?
- A Satan-assisted miracle is a temporary miracle that disguises itself as a genuine miracle....
Catholic view of miracles
I'm not certain that this belongs as it is, but my editing of it is to reflect a need to be gramatical if it is retained. A source for the alledged number of miracles would be really nice! Rlquall 21:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes... The article now claims that the Vatican records some 12,756+ events that it regards as miracles. That number is just the Earth's equatorial diameter in kilometres. Of course it might be a coincidence, but in a discussion of miracles any coincidence sticks out like a sore thumb. So, what about those sources?
—Herbee 23:57, 2005 May 29 (UTC)