Talk:Mathematical beauty

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Contents

1 This article is rather poor 2 Two suggestions 3 Proposed rewrite 4 Numbers aren't beautiful 5 About Users Critical and CStar 6 Move of "Mathematical beauty" to "Aesthetics in mathematics", comments?

This article is rather poor

This article is rather poor, and needs a complete overhaul! (unsigned comment by anon 194.51.2.35 on 10:48, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC).)

Even though I'm responsible for most of it, I have to agree.

First of all, we need to see if we can clarify the distinction between beauty and elegance. Then, the fact that correct mathematical results can be judged independently on their importance, utility and aesthetic impact needs to be stressed (and each of these criteria for judging mathematics deserves its own NPOV development). Philosohical stances such as Platonism, the Pythagoreans, etc probably should be mentioned, but really belong in an article on the philosophy of mathematics or on the influence of mathematics on philosophy. The beauty of mathematics also plays a role in the teaching of mathematics.

It might be that creating this article in the first place was an outstandingly bad idea, but part of the point was to have a page which discusses whether, when and why mathematicians see beauty in mathematics, and how or whether aesthetic considerations play a role in the development of mathematics. Like I said before, importance deserves an entirely separate discussion along the same lines, as well as utility. (I am interpreting importance to be internal to mathematics and utility to be external, but I don't know if that distinction is useful).

Miguel (on 14:19, Aug 22, 2003.)

Suggestion: write mathematical elegance if you think it's a distinct or internal consistency concept - its own branch of aesthetics maybe? Google seems to back you that it's distinct from beauty, it doesn't turn up the same type of references quite.

Suggestion: write foundations of measurement and deal with the issues now covered in mathematical fetishism which are the "dark side of mathematical beauty". That will make clearer what is actually a quasi-empirical issue and what is within axiomatic mathematics itself. (See quasi-empiricism in mathematics if you are unclear what that is). With the philosophy of mathematics issues out of the way, or at least clearly stated, you will find it easier to state what the elegance, beauty, utility questions really are. The treatment of these issues here now is pathetic - you are to be commended for actually making a start on it.

(Unsigned comment by anon 142.177.94.99 on 14:30, Aug 22, 2003.)

Two suggestions

Wow, I can't believe this article was ever even considered for deletion! Not that it's a tremendous article as it stands (it needs a lot of work), but the topic itself is certainly justifiable as an encyclopedic entry. Whoever suggested otherwise and thought it should be obviously deleted is just ignorant. There is a ton of stuff out there on this topic, not just current, but lots of writings by mathematicians throughout history, who have always stressed this aspect of their work. Just the question of what results in math are considering important or elegant and how this is decided is a question becoming more addressed in math philosophy. I just have 2 suggestions, that I think would greatly help:

1. Move all the stuff about math and art to another page. This really is not the same topic at all. There is a difference between the aesthetics of math (why mathematicians think their work is pleasing, what counts as elegant, etc.) and the application of math to understanding art, music, architecture, etc. I don't think it's wise to confuse the two. There should be two separate articles. The latter could be called "mathematics and art" or "application of mathematics to the arts" or something similar.
2. I think "Aesthetics of mathematics" would be a much more general, encompassing, and NPOV title for the article. JMO.

Revolver 19:15, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite

I am proposing to undertake a re-write of this page, in three stages :-

1. Move the stuff about mathematics and art to its own page (already done that).
2. Re-word some of the remaining material, but retaining existing contents and order as much as possible (done that too - Jun 26).
3. Re-order the material under the headings Beauty in experience, Beauty in method, Beauty in results and add new material (done that too - Jul 1).

If you are watching this page, please add comments or alternative proposals below. Gandalf61 13:13, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Numbers aren't beautiful

Numbers aren't beautiful; symbols are pretty and expressions are beautiful. And Galileo was as wrong as Kepler. lysdexia 01:36, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The beauty that mathematicians find in mathematics is obviously altogether different from any esthetic charm anyone finds in symbols or expressions. Michael Hardy 19:30, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

About Users Critical and CStar

For the record, the user Critical ( talk, contributions), who slapped the "disputed NPoV" sticker on this page, has made his or her first edits tonight (or today) and within less than two hours has attacked eight articles for PoV, including (ironically given the CStar example given on the Logical fallacy talk page), Physical law. These were the only "edits" (plus weak justifications on talk pages in the same vein as this one). I don't think the PoV claim has merit. We may ask if this series of attacks is to be taken seriously.

For the following reasons I am thinking that these pages has been the victim of a tiresome semi-sophisticated troll and the PoV sticker should be removed sooner rather than later, if not immediately. We may note that CStar ( talk, contributions) after making edits, paused during the period user Critical made edits, and then CStar took up responding to these edits after the series of user Critical edits ends, as if there is only one user involved, and the user logged out, changed cookies and logged back in. Further, user CStar left a note on Charles Matthew's talk page, Chalst's talk page, and Angela's talk page pointing to a supposed PoV accusation placed on the Logical argument page, when in fact no such sticker has been placed. Perhaps the irony regarding the Physical law page is not so ironic. Hu 05:18, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

I have responded to this on the logical fallacy talk page, as well as on the pages of the above mentioned users. It does appear that these pages were as Hu suggests the victim of a tiresome semi-sophisticated troll. But I wasn't the perpetrator. This suggestion appears to have been an honest mistake, I consider the matter closed, and it appears that Hu does as well. CSTAR 01:43, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Has Critical explained anywhere why he thinks this article is POV ? If not, it is difficult to see how to respond or amend the article, other than by just removing the notice. Gandalf61 09:30, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Move of "Mathematical beauty" to "Aesthetics in mathematics", comments?

The following discussion, concernong the move of mathematical beauty to Aesthetics in mathematics (which has now been moved back) was first begun on User talk:R.Koot, then was continued here. I am now moving the discussion to this page.

(Beginning of moved text.)

R.Koot moved the Mathematical beauty to Aesthetics in mathematics. But I don't agree with the move. As there was no discussion and there is currently no consensus for the move, I decided to move the page back. But I can't. (I don't know why, I'm sure I've done this before) Apparently an admin needs to do it. So I though I'd bring the matter here, to see if we can reach a consensus about what should be done. I've copied the discussion below from R.Koot's talk page.

(Beginning of copied text.)

Hi R.Koot. Welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that you moved Mathematical beauty to Aesthetics in mathematics. Was there any discussion which preceded this? I can't find any. I don't think I like the name change, especially as the article uses the term "beauty" throughout. Paul August ☎ 19:41, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

I have not discussed it, but I personally prefer the word aesthetics. It also allows categorization under philosophy of mathematics (aesthetics being a branch of philosphy). I do agree that it mismatches with the article, but I'd think it would be better to change the article than the title.

--R.Koot 20:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi Rudy thanks for your reply. I'm afraid I don't agree with your move. Aesthetics and beauty are not synonyms. Aesthetics might roughly be defined as the theory of beauty. Changing the article to match the title is backwards. The title should match the article, not the other way around. The article is about mathematical beauty, not aesthetics in mathematics. Titling the article "Mathematical beauty" does not prevent it from being classified under "philosophy of mathematics". I'm going to move it back. If you want to try to gain a consensus for moving it to "aesthetics in mathematics", I suggest you make a case on either the article's talk page or on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics. Paul August ☎ 20:52, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

(End of copied text.)

Comments?

Paul August ☎ 21:13, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Paul. That article is about beauty and not aesthetics.

One of course cannot move that page back, since there is a redirect in its place. An admin would need to delete the redirect first. Oleg Alexandrov 21:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Of course generally you can't move a page to an already existing page, but in the special case where the existing page is a redirect to the page you are trying to move, I thought you could. I'm sure that I've done that before. Of course things could have changed and/or I could be losing my mind (not an altogether unlikely possibility). Anyway any admin who's listening care to help out? (Oleg: you should have accepted Charles' nomination, I think you'd make a good admin ;-) Shall I renominate you?) Paul August ☎ 22:03, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that "Mathematical beauty" was first moved to "Aestetics (mathematics)" and subsequently to "Aesthetics in mathematics". If the move had been done in one go, it would be possible to undo it. By the way, I agree with Paul, both about moving the page back (aesthetics ≠ beauty) and that Oleg should be administrator. -- Jitse Niesen 22:17, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Now we are going off topic, but if you would really like a new admin, who is a good mathematician, thoughtful person, and been here for a while, then how about nominating Jitse? Jitse's been here since 2003, does a lot of VfD work (certainly more than other mathematicians I've seen), and is not addicted to Wikipedia, which is a good thing. Paul, what would you think? Jitse, would you turn down such a nomination? As far as me being admin, that time will come (I mentioned to Charles that he could ask me about this again after three months, which would be in July I think)... Oleg Alexandrov 22:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I've moved it back since that seems like what people want. Aesthetics in mathematics now redirects to Mathematical beauty, and Aestetics (mathematics) (sic) is gone. Let me know if anything else needs doing. BTW, I hang out on RFA a lot and I imagine a RFA for Jitse would likely succeed. The low edit count would be offset by the length of time, breadth of contributions, being active in Wikipedia: space, and vandal fighting. I'd vote for him, anyway. CryptoDerk 23:44, May 19, 2005 (UTC).

Thanks Crypto. Ok we're off topic, but my comment was parenthetical. Anyway, now that I think of it, as a categorical topologist, I'm not sure I can, in good conscience, support either of you applied mathematicians for adminship ;-) Yes of course, I would be happy to support Jitse. Paul August ☎ 00:18, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, this is not going as planned. I'm conveniently going abroad for two weeks this Saturday. Prod me again when I return and I'll think about it. -- Jitse Niesen 00:42, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. By the way, about the edit count, 1215 edits looks to me as a reasonable number. Oleg Alexandrov 00:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

(End of moved text)

Paul August ☎ 19:56, May 27, 2005 (UTC)