Talk:Martyr
From Academic Kids
a modern definition of martyr should include the way of using it in everyday speech to suggest that someone is making a big deal out of their own work or suffering, implies criticism.
I am removing the following:
This claim is of course but one point of view, and the veracity of such a claim tends to be measured not in the merits, but in terms of the outcomes of conflict. ("History is written by the victor.")
which comes right after the note about American President saying that American war dead have sacrificed themselves for freedom. It is pretty obvious that this is in fact President's point of view, and there is no need to rub it in here. Also, this is not about the winners or losers writing history. In American historiography American soldiers die for freedom in all wars (or at least they should be). Obviously, in Arab historiography they die for different causes. Both the winners and losers write their histories and write them the way they feel like, except perhaps for the more extreme cases such as the Russians heavily influencing writing of history textbooks for the East European countries or something like that. Watcher 01:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
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Proposed sentences for Removal from "Hero or Villian?" section
The last three sentences at the end of "Hero or Villian?" section seem to be a digression into the discussion of war crimes rather than martyrs and are fairly POV as well:
In the West intentional efforts to kill as many civilians as possible are generally considered war crimes, as opposed to the death of civilians that is incidental to accomplishment of other goals, such as destruction of military or industrial infrastructure. Such fine distinctions are generally not made by anti-war and pacifist movements who denounce any death of civilians as war crimes and generally consider war a crime as of itself with essential moral equivalence between the two combatants, even if one of them kills civilians wholesale and other only accidentally. They are also not made by non-Western nations deemed guilty of war crimes under this standard because they would generally seek to establish a moral equivalence between their actions and actions of Western or American militaries.
Given that there weren't any objections, I've removed them from the main article mennonot 16:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
20th century martyrs
- Many church historians believe that there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.
Is there any proof to back this statement up? I would like to see who all these martyrs are.--Lucky13pjn 01:54, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)
- I second that request for a reference. Surveying all martyrs over the last 19 centuries would be a huge task and perhaps impossible due to lack of documentation. I also wonder what definition of martyr is being used here.
- Well, it's been over two months, and since nobody has replied to back up this statement, I am going to remove it until someone can.--Lucky13pjn 18:26, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
I question the following statement, and ask for verification of it.
- Estimates of Christian martyrs in the 21st century are about 450 daily, and 160,000 yearly.
If it can't be verified, I think it should be taken out. Chris Peterson 10:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)chrisptx
Martyr Category
Would it be useful to create a martyr category? Does something like this exist already? There's the beginning of a list over at christian martyrs mennonot 22:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I would say yes. The only problem I see is controversy on the inclusion of some people's articles into the category.--Lucky13pjn 23:51, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
In Islam
Muslims were subjected to persecution at the hands of the polytheists of Mecca; see Persecution of Muslims for more detail.
- I'm not sure how this pertains to the section. I've left in "see Persecution of Muslims", but that link and the text doesn't seem to comment on shahid or martyrs. While I have no doubt that Muslims were subjected to persecution, the Hadith addresses the concept of the shahid in an entirely different context. I removed the text because it reads as a non sequitur. I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, so I would welcome any comment on my edits. - Viriditas
I'm not sure which Hadith you're referring to, but I put Sumaya in because, according to the hadiths cited in the page linked to, she was the first shahida (or indeed martyr of either sex) of Islam, at the hands of Abu Jahl. - Mustafaa 12:22, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why is thee not a section of martyrs to Christian Intolerance. I mean how many people where slaughtered because of this. I mean Hypatia is one example..how bout the cathar's of southern France, or the salem wittch trials or the native peoples in North america. I think this article needs a section on Martyrs of Christian intolerance to be taken seriously.
Martyrs of the Spanish Inquisition
I read somewhere that some group of victims of the Spanish Inquisition venerated those dead at its hands, mirroring the veneration of Christian martyrs, even when the pure form of their religion didn't allow this veneration. The problem is that I don't remember if the group was the Crypto-Jews or Moriscos. --Error 03:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"Shaheed"
It redirects back to martyr. Would the term even be worth a new article? Just a minor thing, but still. Also, is it "shahid" or "shaheed?"
TaintedMustard 06:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Definition I think this definition page misses the main concept of MARTYR: That is that the martyr's life HAS BEEN TAKEN because of a refusal to compromise ones actions or belief: - rather than choosing to give ones life to make a moral point. The sacrificial giving of one's life for a cause is rightly not referred to as martyrdom (Matthew 21 May 2005)
Jewish Martyrs/others
There should probably be sections on martyrs from backgrounds than Christian and Muslim, especially Jewish. I couldn't do it, but I think it's desperately needed.
