Talk:Fabaceae

From Academic Kids

Legume page

Regarding the Legume page (its talk page redirects here), there seems to be duplication of material. Maybe there should be a disambig statment at the top, then the rest of the page about the legume 'pod' and seeds. Fabaceae should be reserved for information of the plants. Onco p53 11:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your idea has merit, but really, there is presently very minimal overlap or redundant text. It is impoertant to mention nitrogen fixation in both articles. The difinitions on the legume page are disambiguations. They could state more specifically that the plant family is discussed at Fabaceae. - Marshman 18:16, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

_Nelumbium_ belongs in the Nymphaceae and _Nymphaea_ in the Nymphaeceae. Neither is anything like a legume as you have shown it. I did like your pictures. Celia Ehrlich Cehrlich@cyberportal.net

I see neither of those mentioned in the article. Perhaps you are thinking of Lotus, which is a genus in Fabaceae and has nothing to do with the Indian or Egyptian lotus except the name? -phma

Legume taxonomy

Hi, since you seem to be someone that likes correct taxonomy, do you think that the entry for the Fabaceace should be changed to the Leguminosae, and the sub-famalies to the Caesalpinioideae, Mimosoideae and Papilionoideae, since this is the taxonomy currrently accepted world-wide (consistent with the International Legume Database and Information Service at least)? --nixie 06:27, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Off hand (I'll check further for you) I would say no. Fabaceae is the modern name and pretty much accepted everywhere I am familiar with. I'm surprised anyone still uses Leguminosae, as it was invalidated as not representing the name of a type genus a decade or more ago. The subfamilies are good, except Papilionoideae is now Faboideae. Some name changes die hard with some botanists. The "International Legume Database and Information Service" could just be some guy in his den somewhere. Would have no official standing, and may not be representative of anything but one person's opinion. - Marshman 08:22, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The ILDIS is an international group of legume specilaists. As far as I can tell Fabaceace is still used in some circles because of presedence. Mabye we could include something explaining the taxonomic confusion :) --nixie 10:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That would be good. But it is Leguminosae that is used because of precedence (it is the older name). Looking in my taxonomic books older than about 1985, both names are given, with Leguminosae preferred. After that, the situation flips, with Fabaceae preferred. Of course there remains the related problem that Faba is now Vicia I believe. Guess we need to research this further. I'm going to move our discussion to the Fabaceae talk page to get more input - Marshman 16:52, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Legume taxonomy has undergone an overhaul, and you will find that the worldwide the Family is the Leguminosae (its still called the Fabaceae in the US, but this is not in line with current taxonomy). The current taxonomy database is held here [1] (http://www.ildis.org/). I think that the entry should reflect the taxonomy used worldwide. -holmespeta@yahoo.com

I cannot get that web site (ILDIS) to work (this morning anyway: comes up, but lacks all images, buttons, etc., links fail). Seems like it is Family Fabaceae in the US and Family Leguminosae in GB and Europe. That does not place either as "not in line with current taxonomy", but suggests we want to get a handle on which way the winds are blowing.- Marshman 17:00, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

RESULTS:

• Watson & Dallwitz (Delta (http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/angio/)) - Leguminosae
• Stevens (Missouri Botanical Garden (http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/Research/APweb/welcome.html)) - Fabaceae
• Tree of Life (http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Fabales&contgroup=Rosids) - Fabaceae

From Article 18 of the ICBN ([2] (http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/nomenclature/code/SaintLouis/0022Ch3Sec2a018.htm)) (my emphasis):

Art. 18.1. The name of a family is a plural adjective used as a noun; it is formed from the genitive singular of a legitimate name of an included genus by replacing the genitive singular inflection (Latin -ae, -i, -us, -is; transliterated Greek -ou, -os, -es, -as, or -ous, including the latter's equivalent -eos) with the termination -aceae (but see Art.18.5). For generic names of non-classical origin, when analogy with classical names is insufficient to determine the genitive singular, -aceae is added to the full word. For generic names with alternative genitives the one implicitly used by the original author must be maintained.

Art. 18.5. The following names, of long usage, are treated as validly published: Palmae (Arecaceae; type, Areca L.); Gramineae (Poaceae; type, Poa L.); Cruciferae (Brassicaceae; type, Brassica L.); Leguminosae (Fabaceae; type, Faba Mill. [= Vicia L.]); Guttiferae (Clusiaceae; type, Clusia L.); Umbelliferae (Apiaceae; type, Apium L.); Labiatae (Lamiaceae; type, Lamium L.); Compositae (Asteraceae; type, Aster L.). When the Papilionaceae (Fabaceae; type, Faba Mill.) are regarded as a family distinct from the remainder of the Leguminosae, the name Papilionaceae is conserved against Leguminosae.

Both are valid and either can legitimately be used; but Leguminosae is only 'on sufferance' so as not to offend traditionalists. The trend in nomenclature is toward standardisation of names, both to the -aceae ending and to specification of the type genus, which means Fabaceae is likely to become the standard in the future. The main problem with the old names is that they can be confused with other ranks because of their endings (e.g. old family Cruciferae, old order Coniferae). - MPF 23:01, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, MPF. That is kind of how I was interpreting things, going conservative on jumping back to Leguminosae. You stated it well (and hopefully, prophetically) - Marshman 04:06, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)