Talk:Kingdom of Great Britain
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Removed from main page: Monarchs however continued to use their English numbers rather than their Scottish ones. Hence when Prince Albert Edward became King in 1901, he was proclaimed 'King Edward VII' even though only England, not Scotland, had had an England VI.
Great Britain lasted from 1707 tp 1801 when its monarchs were Anne, George, George II and George III so there were no Scottish/English naming conflicts. Rmhermen 20:56 Dec 14, 2002 (UTC)
It is a fair point. The above reference belonged to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland page. The point I was trying to make was that post 1707 the new state that emerged was anglo-centric (centred on England), as shown in the manner by which GB/UK monarchs were numbered. Unfortunately I am not an expert on GB history, being stronger on UK of GB+I/UK of GB + NI. I appreciate your observation. JTD
There never was such a thing as the Kingdom of Great Britain. The official title was the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Please refer to the source documents, The Scottish Act of Union 1707 and the English Act of Union 1707. The Scottish Act states the official title of the new state and its parliament in article III
- III That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be represented by one and the same Parliament, to be styled the Parliament of Great Britain.
There are many other references throughout the document which make it clear that the official title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and that it contains a new Parliament with representatives from Scotland and England. -- Derek Ross 14:11 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
JT, I'm quite prepared to be wrong. It's happened before, it'll happen again. However I don't trust appeals to authority. I find it more useful to know the reasoning that authorities have used in coming to their conclusions. Rather than stating that this is the title because historians say so, I'd prefer that you let us in on the reason why they think so. And I like source documents much better than history books. Now you've obviously got a good reason for wanting to change the title back. Please share it with us. It can be added to the article -- Derek Ross 19:32 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
- Derek, we obviously both want to get these things right. (And yes, I have been wrong before too!) My interest is simple. I write a lot about royal/state/presidential titles on an academic level, because studying headships of state is my speciality. When I lectured students, confusion over just what was what caused endless difficulties to undergraduates trying to master the complexities of history. Sometimes titles are ambiguous, sometimes they have evolved over time. Often books (history and otherwise) mix up terms like UK, GB, England, etc. But given that most people reading these pages in Wikipedia won't have the sort of academic backgrounds and qualifications we have, it is important to give clarity where we can give clarity.
- The 1707 did refer to a 'united kingdom'. Obviously we cannot interview those who wrote the Act to work out what they meant (is there a page of seances?). So we have to rely on precedent & judgment, offering whatever clarity we can. When they talked about a 'United Kingdom' in 1707, it seems (and this is the consensus I found among senior historians) they were being descriptive, describing what they wanted the new kingdom to be, a united kingdom, rather than giving this new kingdom a name. (Hence its use in the above quote from the Act, which then curiously talks about the parliament of 'Great Britain'. One would expect they to use the official name of the kingdom when referring to the Kingdom's parliament!). The name overwhelmingly used is 'Kingdom of Great Britain', with the word 'united' occasionally used, but not universally until after 1801, when UK was a clear definition of the new post 1801 kingdom. The term 'United Kingdom' might have been relevant if they called it, for example, the 'United Kingdom of England and Scotland'. But instead they used the name for the island of Great Britain as the new legal name for the kingdom. Hence 'Kingdom of Great Britain'. United Kingdom of GB would make no sense, as there is only one GB. Who had it it united with? (Hence 'united' being descriptive.)
- When this kingdom merged with the Kingdom of Ireland in 1801, the name 'Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland' wasn't suitable because it could be seen as indicating two separate kingdoms working together, not a united solitary kingdom. So the term 'United Kingdom' was unambiguously introduced to describe the merged kingdom covering both islands, and adapted in the 1920s when the Irish Free State left. Norman Davies' The Isles is quite clear in the index in describing monarchs between 1707 and 1801 and being 'of Great Britain' and after 1801 as being of the UK (in one of its two incarnations, though even his index has errors, with George V at one point being 'king of England'). Because titles are my area of academic interest, perhaps I am more concerned with them and getting them right than most others. But because different titles refer to different kingdoms, involving England, Scotland, Ireland (or now Northern Ireland), and that has different sensitivities to people studying history in those nations, it is important that Wikipedia get things right if possible.
- One final quick point. On Wikipedia I placed references to the Better Government of Ireland Act, 1920. Though 'Better' is technically part of its name, I've removed it because in common discourse and in books, the Act was simply known as the 'Govt. of Ireland Act'. In a similar vein, even if 'united' was occasionally used as part of the GB title (and it seems whether through error or for other reasons it was, though apparently discriptively), as the 'Kingdom of Great Britain' is by far the most widely used version, that in itself justifies its use in that form, without the 'united', which was only widely used for the post 1801 kingdom. I hope this clarifies matters somewhat. (PS: happy new year!) JTD 20:24 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea to put some of that in the article. I for one find the heading "Kingdom of Great Britain" strange, so I think an explanation available without looking at the talk page is in order.
- P.S. It never struck me that a kingdom couldn't be united by itself.Bagpuss 21:27 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)
- I agree. England and Scotland were united, and thus, 'United Kingdom' is perfectly valid. With no written constitutional document declaring the name, we cannot be sure, but it seems to me that United Kingdom was its name. As well as this, 'The Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland', would be equally valid, as that was what it was. Unlike before then, where Ireland and Britain had one King sitting on two thrones(Metaphorically, of course), they now had one throne, as had happened in 1707 - it was a near-identical situation. As to 'common usage'. Well, a quick google shows 447 references to 'Kingdom of Great Britain', and 7770 references to "United Kingdom of Great Britain'(Both sans Northern and Ireland). Not conclusive, but it serves to reinforce the point. The fact is, Britain has no official name, but we all learn 1707 as the date of the foundation of the UK, so I'm lending weight to that side of the argument. Oh, and also, the reason Norman Davies called them kings of 'Great Britain' before 1801 and of the UK afterwards is simple pragmatics. 'Great Britain and Ireland' is a mouthful, unlike simple 'Great Britain'.
Perhaps it would be better to use the term "united Kingdom of Great Briatin" (united with a small u) [-- Cap 18:11 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)]
