Talk:Kataeb Party

From Academic Kids

I titled my last edit, "FIXED VANDALISM." I'm sorry, that was a mistake. One paragraph had been moved to a place where it was nonsensical, but on closer inspection, that was one of my own errors. I must have done it when half asleep. I repeat, this article was NOT vandalized, and I'm sorry I implied said that it was. (David Cannon) - 21 January 2004, 5.19AM GMT.

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Fascist Party?

Please do not remove my additions to this article of 16/06/03. They are accurate and do not constitute vandalism. Thankyou.

Calling the party "fascist" and saying that they and Israel "were responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, rather than that responsibility was alleged, is POV. This is an NPOV encyclopedia, and deliberately inserting POV does constitute vandalism. If you continue to call this party "fascist," I will continue to revert it. There is nothing fascist about its present constitution or manifesto. Whatever its roots have been in the past is irrelevant now. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's NPOV policy before injecting such biased POV into an article. David Cannon 01:40, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, both Israel and Phalange responsibility for Sabra and Chatila massacre is acknowledged by both parties. How can it not be NPOV?

And Kataeb is still a fascist party. It still follows the teaching of Pierre Gemayel and still under the slogan 'God-Country-Family'. Very few fascist parties will admit such publicly, this does not alter reality. Thankyou.

Pierre Gemayel, in his later years, was one of Lebanon's more moderate politicians - too moderate for the liking of many of his contemporaries. It was he who signed the 1969 accord allowing the PLO into Lebanon (an action he came to regret); it was he who called for Syria to intervene in Lebanon in the mid-1970s (another action he came to regret) and refused to support Chamoun's call for a general strike against them in 1978. It was he who worked with Walid Jumblatt in the months before his death to set up a government of national unity in a vain attempt to bring an end to the civil war.

You say, "both Israel and Phalange responsibility for Sabra and Chatila massacre is acknowledged by both parties." False. Each party blames the other, without acknowledging responsibility themselves. I have no doubt that elements of the Phalange were involved in the massacre. There may well have been renegade elements of the Israeli security forces involved as well. That is a far cry from saying that they had the blessing of their leaders.

Neither party has ever been convicted in a court of law. Such a conviction may come. But until such time, the correct NPOV position is "innocent until proved guilty" - and that means proved guilty in a court of law. Not charged, but convicted. To say that allegations have been made is factual. To say that evidence has been produced is factual. To say that a verdict has been delivered is false, and I will revert all such implications.

"God-Country-Family" is a slogan used by many politicians, fascist and nonfascist. It proves nothing either way. To say that the Phalange has been accused by its opponents of being fascist, that is factual and acceptable. To say that it is fascist is POV, and I will revert it.

What is beyond dispute is that the Phalange ORGANIZATION was inspired by the Fascist movement. This does not make the Phalange a fascist party. A parallel example is the KMT of the Republic of China/Taiwan. Its organization was inspired by the Communist movement/Comintern. Does that make the KMT a Communist Party? We all know it to be strongly anticommunist. Like the Phalange, it has been accused of being fascist. Gemayel's organization of the Phalange along fascist lines proves nothing about his personal ideology: it only proves that he considered that organizational structure to be an effective one, not that he agreed with their policy.

Fascism is antisemitic. Do you think ISRAEL would recruit an antisemitic party as an ally? Talk sense!

Not really. The leaders of the Italian Jewish community (like any important person in Fascist Italy) had to be members of the Fascist Party. Antisemitism was very minoritary in Italy. However the alliance with Hitler and the Salò Republic moved the Party to antisemitism. Nazism is antisemitic, though. -- Error 01:37, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Besides, I think if you're going to make regular contributions to a controversial topic (as you have every right to do), it would be much nicer to log in properly and establish a formal identity in Wikipedia. Anonymous users are welcome and appreciated, but controversial edits bear much greater credibility if made by identifiable persons. How much notice would you take of an unsigned letter stuffed in your mailbox? See what I mean? Thank you also. David Cannon 21:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

David, thankyou for your reply. When I have time I will establish a formal identity. Several points: 1) Kuomintang was not a communist inspired movement. It was a fascist inspired movement, although not actually fascist. It took organisational aid from the USSR, not it's politics. The Wiki article on KMT describes it as Leninist and this is very inaccurate. 2) Fascism is not necessariliy anti-semitic, it is, after all, possible to be a fascist and a Jew. As Error has pointed out, it was Nazism that was anti-semitic. 3) Sabra and Chatila. While it is true that there has been no trial there is no doubt as to the responsibility for the massacre. See Kahan Commission. Surely a denial of a crime does not carry equal weight to the testimony of many of those involved? 4) I do not use the term fascist in a perjoritive fashion but as an accurate description of a movement. The Phalange was formed as a fascist party with a fascistic philosophy. The Kataeb Party today says it still follows the philosophy of Pierre Gemayel, it follows that it is a fascist party. I have included two web links: firstly to the official site of Kataeb, where the party states it still follows Pierre Gemayel's philosophy and where there are images of the nationalist Cedar of Lebanon transformed into a Black Arrow. The Black Arrow was, of course, a fascist symbol in Hungary in the 1930's and 40's. The second link is to a Falange party in the USA which contains blatantly fascist imagery (and also a denial of being fascist!) and from which parts of the Wikipedia article appears to be drawn. http://www.kataeb.com/ and http://www.falange.us/bashir.htm John Ball