Talk:Julius Caesar

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Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

--Gaius Julius Caesar

Where on earth does this quotation I removed from the end of the entry come from? I'm googling it and finding it everywhere (mainly on slightly odd political sites); NONE of the occurrences I have found so far give any more information than the tag line: --Gaius Julius Caesar. No source. It is unlikely to have been a statement of Caesar's - unless these are words put into his mouth by modern playwrights! Let me point out that Romans were not big users of drums - their martial music was wind-based (horns, flutes, etc.). MichaelTinkler

• You've made me curious. The people that quote it seem to take it as Gospel that Julius Caesar did say this, but none has dug any deeper. Styllistically, I understood that Julius's style was fairly straightforward, and that made him a good example for students of Latin. The style for this, allowing for the peculiarities of the translator, still seems terribly florid. The English style is not of the 20th century. If Julius did write this, the end suggests that it was late in his life. Eclecticology

• This quotation paints a picture of a modern dictatorship with propaganda, nationalistic appeals, "seizing" of "rights". In Caesar's time it was all tied up in being thought a god and having good family connections, not the modern style at all (Jr. Bush notwithstanding). In other words, this doesn't really pass the smell test. It is also worth pointing out that this purported strategy did not work for Caesar. I would be interested both in a clear attribution of this remark and also any serious indication that Caesar's policies pursued this line Ortolan88

• I had thought it might be from Plutarch, but haven't managed to find it there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a quotation from one of Caesar's works - or rather, from a translation of one of his works, and this is an important point. It's meaningless to say that Caesar's style was simple and this English version is "florid", simply because a translator can translate things into florid or simple language as the urge takes them. A second important point to note is that Roman historians - and this includes Caesar himself - treated historiography as a literary genre. Because the quotation is in the first person, it would be a speech put into Caesar's mouth by the writer (which could be Caesar himself), but the reader is not expected to believe that it is word-for-word the speech that was actually made on that occasion. Today we would call this poetic licence. So it's not worth getting all worked up about, except insofar that it would be nice to know where it came from. I can't find it in a dictionary of quotations. Deb

• The use of the phrase "And I am Caesar" makes it unlikely to have been said by Julius Caesar; the use of the term "Caesar" to denote a high office was not instituted until after the reign of Augustus (and even then, it denoted a minor office, subordinate to the emperor, who was referred to as Augustus in Latin or Basileus in Greek --- in the time of Diocletian the senior emperors were called "Augustus" and the junior emperors "Caesar"). In Julius Caesar's day, it was a name, nothing more; the wording would have made no sense at that time.

• "Caesar neither said that nor did that. Armies were assembled by granting soldiers pillage rights, pensions and land in conquered lands upon retirement. The concept of patriotism among the populace as we know it today did not exist, nor did individual rights in the modern sense. It was essentially a class/caste system with no rights other than those assigned by the state or purchased through wealth." (http://www.shenandoahvalley.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard/messages/24.html)

• I haven't read all of Caesar's works, but "De Bello Gallica" (the Gaulish Wars) is written entirely in the third person; Caesar never, ever refers to himself as "I". Perhaps this quotation is from Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". --Charlie

According to this piece in Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/caesar.htm) it isn't in any known work of Caesar or Shakespeare and first appeared on the Internet last year. Ortolan88

• Discussion

http://www.mojosdailygrind.com/news/quotes.html

• This quote was most likely invented by a Moorean pseudo-intellectual college weenie with no grasp of history --66.120.157.194 09:34, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've heard that the words alea iacta est according to the historian Plutarch were actually put by Caesar in Greek, quoting a greek play popular at the time (much the way we quote our favourite movie oneliners these days), does anyone know the exact source in Plutarch for this statement, the corresponding Greek wording, and the play and playwright supposedly quoted? -- Jörgen Nixdorf

Quick digging in electronic texts found the answer. I'm adding it to the main page so you can see this for yourselves. -- Jörgen Nixdorf

Still looking for the name of the quoted play though, please help out if you can. -- Jörgen Nixdorf

No one appears to be able to cite anything beyond the fact that it was Greek, translated to "let the dice fly high" (rather than "the die is cast", Suetonius's version), and a line from Menander. -- User:Publius

Another issue, should Caesar be written Cæsar, now that Wikipedia supports all of ISO 8859-1? Or is the two-letter form prefered in the English world? -- Jörgen Nixdorf

I believe we should use Caesar since most English speaking reader would search for/write Caesar. --Lorenzarius 15:53 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

Well, Julius Cæsar will actually take you to the real thing as it is right now, but it could just as well be the other way around, so it doesn't matter much what you search for, you will find your Cæsar either way. I was wondering about common convention in other encyclopedias here... (Or should I say encyclopædia? :-) -- Jörgen Nixdorf

I have corrected the statement that Pompeia was a relative of Pompey the Great. Her father was a Pompey, of course, but from the family of Pompeius Rufus. Pompey´s family was a bit obscure until is life. And she was a grandaughter of Sulla (Suetonius, for instance) Muriel Gottrop

And another thing: who ever wrote this article did a very nice work . Congratulations! User:MurielGottrop

Anyone know why it should be tsar instead of czar.. the latter spelling is more in line with the origin of the word. --Dante Alighieri 03:03 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Russian transliteration uses the letter which is usually translated as "Ts" as the first character. RickK 05:38 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, the OED lists czar as the former common spelling for the word which is currently spelled tsar. I'm changing the text of the article back to czar as it is likely to be more illustrative to the point at hand. The hyperlink still goes to the tsar article, so there's no risk of confusion. --Dante Alighieri 07:56 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

After a re-reading of Suetonius and Plutarch's biographies of Caesar, I noted a few flaws on the former version of this article and I decided to expand and rewrite it. Some notes on the revision:

The First Triumvirate was not a government, but an informal alliance: its comparison with the second triumvirate is not formal since this one had legal implications and Caesar's triumvirate didn't. It was only a political alliance and did not imperilled the Republic. In 59 BC, Caesar was still a believer in the system.

Brutus was not Caesar's adopted son. If so, he would not be known as Brutus, but as Gaius Julius Caesar Junianus. The (doubtful) last words of Caesar "You too my son?" must be interpreted as a figure of speech. "My son" is an expression often directed at persons that are not biological or adopted siblings. Caesar had known Brutus since his birth, was intimate of his mother and taught him rhetoric. It is only natural that he referred to him as "my son".

I kept the second paragraph of the chapter The Name Caesar, but I have strong reservations about this…

Caesar did not receive the title Imperator: this was given to Augustus Caesar in 27 BC. As far as I understand he died a Republican, without having a glimpse of the end of the Republic. The Empire is Augustus doing.

I also removed the excessive (and a bit annoying) linking of some words. Muriel 10:15, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Caesar did receive the title imperator, as did all triumphators (including Marius, Sulla, Metellus Pius, Pompey, and Cicero). He simply did not use it the way that Caesar Augustus did; Plutarch describes Caesar as wearing triumphal regalia during the Lupercal festival, despite not conducting a triumph. -- User:Publius

The only reference I ever found of a Tertia (or Tertulla) daughter of Servilia Caepionis was in Suetonius (Caesar, 50), where she is referred to be Caesar's mistress. Now, since we are talking about Romans not Ptolomies, that's quite different from daughter. Can anybody provide a reference for the addition of Tertia to Caesar's descendants? If not, I'll remove it in two days. Cheers, Muriel Victoria 07:57, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• Removed, but still open to discussion if the reference is other that The October Horse :) Muriel

Is there any reason to have a List of Battles & a Chronology of J.C.'s life in this article? Both of these ought to be mentioned in the text body. (And I'm unaware of any other biography with these kinds of helps.) I believe they are unnecessary, & should be removed. -- llywrch 20:39, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC) (awaiting refutal)

I can go either way. Chronological stuff could go to year articles, but he is by far the #1-most-interesting Roman for the general public, and a chronology is a useful way to summarize a moderately complicated text for the impatient reader. The list of battles is most usefully subsumed in timeline in any case. Stan 20:52, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think a chronology is very neat for this and any biography. The list of battles can go if the rest of the world like, but i added it to give some detail to the section Caesar as a military commander. Muriel Victoria 13:21, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I remember reading that Caesar had a certain sense for the future, a sort of precognition. Could anyone tell me if and where in classical sources references are made to this? I searched the article, but wasn't surprised not to find it as it hasn't been proven. Thank you. -- Redge 14:49, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What is everyone's opinion about what the title of this article should be? Caesar's full name was "Gaius Julius Caasar", although the common term for him was simply "Julius Caesar". I think the title of the article should reflect his full correct name User:Husnock

As I see it, the title should be [[Julius Caesar]] (or the most common recognizable name), but the first time he is mentioned in the article, the full name should be given. --Merovingian✍Talk 18:33, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

   His last words have been various </i>[sic]</i> reported as:
       * Kai su, teknon? (Gr., "And you, son?")

   Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi! (Lat., "You too, Brutus, my son!")

   Et tu, Brute? (Lat., "And you, (my son) Brutus?" - it can be argued that "my son" is implied by the case used)

As for the Gallic dialects: It is said that at least one of Caesar's immediate servants was a Gallic slave. But what is the source, where is it written that he did learn Gallic from him? Gallic slaves spoke Latin in Rome. And in Gaul Caesar used interpreters, even when he wished absolute privacy. De Bello Gallico 1.19: itaque priusquam quicquam conaretur, Diviciacum ad se vocari iubet et cotidianis interpretibus remotis per C. Valerium Troucillum, principem Galliae provinciae, familiarem suum, cui summam omnium rerum fidem habebat, cum eo conloquitur; –Therefore, before he attempted anything, he orders Diviciacus to be summoned to him, and, when the ordinary interpreters had been withdrawn, converses with him through Caius Valerius Troucillus, chief of the province of Gaul, an intimate friend of his, in whom he reposed the highest confidence in every thing;

As for Hebrew is there any evidence? And from whom should Caesar have learnt Hebrew in his youth, in the Suburra? The Jews in Rome spoke Greek, if they did not speak Latin. And why should he? In order to read the Books of the Jews? But they were translated into Greek (Septuaginta: LXX) since the third century BC.

Either there is a source, or this is a supposition. But one can suppose false things. It would be more plausible to suppose that Caesar learnt Etruscan. From Claudius it is known that he learnt it. The disciplina etrusca (auspicina, haruspicina, etc.) constituted an important part of the Roman Religion. So Caesar, being Pontifex Maximus, had to know it too. But Caesar learning Hebrew? Is this written somewhere else than in the Wikipedia? If it is the case, it would be very interesting to know the sources. So, please, look up, and give us that important information. If not, please delete that passage:

"where he apparently learned to speak several languages, including Hebrew and Gallic dialects." – or at least this: "including Hebrew and Gallic dialects."

Marc.