Talk:Society of Jesus
From Academic Kids
The Jesuits are to many Protestants what Freemasons are to Catholics.
- I don't see the logic of the "analogy". Please explain if you put it back.
conspiracies abound about both groups, and in a bizarrely reciprocal relationship, especially in European countries. Maybe it's too light hearted for a main entry, and belongs under 'conspiracy theories' directly. I know that wikipedia isn't supposed to be a joke, but it isn't supposed to be as dry as britannica, either. *sigh*
--MichaelTinkler
Were Jesuits really suppressed in EVERY country? -rmhermen
Yep. Even in America they went underground. What they did here is change all their property over into the name of a holding corporation. The first Catholic bishop in the United States (that's as opposed to Catholic bishops from Spanish or French territories who had had nominal authority) was John Carroll. He had been a Jesuit, but when th papal proclamation came out he submitted and became a diocesan priest. He was lucky enough to live long enough to see the Society re-constituted in the early 19th century. Enough of them lived through the suppression that when they were re-formed they stepped up and reorganized their training system. Lots of Jesuit historians and Jesuits who are historians think that the group has never really been th same, though. --MichaelTinkler
Actually, as it says in the article, the Jesuits were not suppressed in Russia since it was an Orthodox country and had no loyalty to the Vatican. The Jesuits who were in Russia at the time continued their work and were able to help rebuild the order after the suppression ended. --D. O'Brien
Some interesting, and probably totally irrelevant, trivia: The publishers of the Official Scrabble Players Dictionary decided that their third edition should be for "home and school" use, rather than being the official reference for tournament use. Because of this, they expurgated "offensive" words from the book, and published a separate official tournament word list that still had the offensive words in it. The words they expurgated were the usual suspects like "fuck", plus racial/group epthets like "nigger" and "kike", ... and "jesuit". I don't know exactly where "jesuit" is considered that offensive, but it must be somewhere. --LDC
Oh, my. That is wonderful to know, Lee. I'd guess England, where 'jesuitry' and 'jesuitical' are incredibly common terms of political abuse and where p.c.ness is advanced enough to demand it. There are Latin American countries of which I'd believe it, but they wouldn't be a major market for the Official Scrabble Players Dictionary, English Edition, I'd guess? Great book on the Jesuit conspiracy topic, by the way, and my entry for explaining the Mind of the Conspiracy Thinker: The Jesuit Myth : Conspiracy Theory and Politics in Nineteenth-Century France. Geoffrey Cubitt. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993. ASIN: 0198228686 (out of print, of course). --MichaelTinkler
I'd like to see more info why the Jesuits were suppressed and how they dealt with it. Especially the former. Kent Wang 21:09, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
While "Jesuits" is a common name for the "Society of Jesus", "Jesuit" is not, and refers to a member of the organization. The title of the page should really be "Society of Jesus". Objections? --Samuel J. Howard 12:32, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Do you mean that Jesuit should be a different article from Society of Jesus? -- Error 01:06, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I think he means that the name of the article should be changed to Society of Jesus. I agree. Kent Wang 21:22, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Article moved. Kent Wang 06:36, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
"In 1537 they travelled to Italy to seek papal approval for their order. Pope Paul III gave them a commendation, and permitted them to be ordained priests. They were ordained at Venice by the bishop of Arbe (June 24). They devoted themselves to preaching and charitable work in Italy, as the renewed war between the emperor, Venice, the pope and the Seljuk Turks rendered any journey to Jerusalem inadvisable."
How is this possible if Seljuk Turks ceased to exist in 13th century?
Catherine the Great and Frederick of Prussia refused to suppress the Jesuits.
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Reactions of a Jesuit to the article
As a Jesuit, the article on the Jesuits was interesting to read both for what it said and what it confused. I will want to check some references before trying an edit on the article.
Some initial obvious flaws in the article: They did not form an order in Paris. They did bind themselves together and promised to go to Jerusalem. The initial agreement was that if they could not go for a year, they would then consider what to do. They happened to pick the only year when no ships were available for Jerusalem. It was not until the discussions in Italy that they decided to found an order. By the time they got to Venice, they were ten rather than seven.
The 1538 meeting with the pope was one where the pope suggested that they give up the plan to go to Jerusalem. They then started discussions and decided to form a religious order. They were approved as an order in the 1540 bull, but their constitutions were not yet written. The first draft of the constitutions was not completed until 1550. They were not approved until the first general congregation in 1556. [The only history of the Jesuits I have immediately at hand is "An Introduction to Jesuit Life" by Tom Clancy.]
The tone of the article is rather polemical, reducing the Catholic Reformation to a rection to the Prodestant Reformation. The description given of the Ignation retreat is of the common modern experience of the retreat rather than what it was like in those days. In the early period there is no mention of the network of schools that was set up, with the first standardization of a school system. The description of missions gives only the most controversial ones. The Jesuits also started the California missions until the Society was suppressed. They were active in India and China. With the French they explored sections of Canada. With the Spanish they explored a significant section of the Southwestern United States.
It is worth noting that a significant part of the controversies surrounding the Jesuits has to do with the rise of absolute nation states and attempts by these rising states to exercise complete control, even over religion. The international structure of the Jesuits works against absolute national power and has made the Society of Jesus a lightning rod for those who would fragment Christianity and make it subject to the state.
The suppression of the Jesuits was not promulgated in Germany and Russia because the non-Catholic leaders of those countries valued the schools that the Jesuits were running in the two countries.
Mike May, S.J.
"I will believe that the white that I see is black if the hierarchical Church so defines it."
Where is this quote from? I'm doing a report on Jesuits so it would be a great help to know the source.
Thanks in advance, Mikkel
FOLLOW-UP:
Nevermind, I found it by googling. Here's the reference: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/COUNTER.HTM
An addition about the current Father General, Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, would be helpful. He has a biography in the German Wikipedia, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hans_Kolvenbach, if anyone cares to translate it.
P.J.
Turks
Which Turks in /*Foundation*/ second paragraph? The article has long said Seljuk Turks, but someone parenthetically commented in the article that it's probably the Ottoman Turks given the dates involved. Maybe so, but the article needs to state one thing or the other, not carry discussions in parentheses that belong here. I googled a bit but didn't find anything definite enough to make me change Seljuk to Ottoman in the article. Anyone? --Kbh3rd 18:52, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
the schools & universities
the two wah yan colleges are secondary schools, not tertiary--little Alex 04:25, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Rules for Thinking with the Church
The "Rules for Thinking With the Church" form the end of St. Ignatius' Spiritual Exercises. It would probably be better to use the actual text of the Exercises in research and citations. It can be found here on page 98 of an acrobat file containing the entire text:
[1] (http://www.jesuit.org/images/docs/915dWg.pdf)
Jesuit.org also has other Jesuit documents online, for those interested.
Mike May is correct in his assertion that the Society ran into most of its trouble due to its internationalist nature. It should be noted, however, that the Jesuits really did so some things in 16th century Protestant Europe that were a bit shady to say the least.
Michael Simone, S.J.
New Categories
I've created two new Jesuit categories. One, "Jesuit", as a catchall for all topics and added "Jesuits" as a subcategory of it. The second, "Jesuit Education", to link the large number of educational institutions now listed. --BenM 07:23, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Link
When a list of heads of the Order is created, add a link to the term Black Pope.
- List of heads of the order is now at Father General. --Gerald Farinas 18:55, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
wording question
"The Jesuits have frequently been described by Catholic and Protestant enemies as engaged in various conspiracies."
Does "Catholic and Protestant enemies" mean "enemies of Catholics and of Protestants" or "Catholics and Protestants who don't like the Jesuits"?
Additions and Editions
I added some info in the first paragraph about the Society of Jesus today.
I also clarified the Jesuits relationship to the Counter-Reformation in various places. The Jesuits were founded well before the council of Trent, and countering Protestantism was not a part of their foundational documents. Within the first generation, however, they had taken up reform of the Church and defense of the faith, and it is for this reason that they are associated with the Counter-Reformation. This relationship needs to be clarified.
I added a paragraph about the historical relationship between the Society of Jesus and the pope that helps to contextualize Ignatius statement about "thinking with the Church."
I expanded the section about the Spiritual Exercises, which had clearly been written by someone who did not have even a cursory knowledge of the work.
I also expanded the paragraph on Jesuit schools, adding info on the Jesuit commitment to the humanities and art. In addition, I clarified the Jesuit position on music and ceremony in Catholic ritual, which needed some context.
mikesj
General Congregation after Arrupe
I reverted because the previous edit, along with including POV statements regarding other religious orders, included this regarding the pope:
- Because the present liberal thinking, they were not very supported by Pope John Paul II, who even did a coup d état choosing himself in 1981 the Father General of the Society when the late father Arrupe suffered a stroke. Traditionally the General Congregation of the Society chooses the Father General.
The pope never appointed the superior general, and the general congregation did choose the next Superior General (Peter Hanz-Kolvenbach) in 1983. Perhaps the author was refering to the appointment of Paolo Dezza, the apostolic delegate, in light of Pedro Arrupe's stroke. Pmadrid 00:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Controversies about Controversies
I believe that the the very long Controversies section needs to be dramatically changed to comply with Wikipedia guidelines to: 1) maintain NPOV, 2) maintain appropriate article length, 3) put the article back into a more "encyclopedia" third person rather than in the form of an interview and narrative, and 4) eliminate any copyright risks as the material seems to have been copied wholesale from another publication. I have attempted to make these edits, but the original editor has reverted without comment.
Priests and not priests
Looking at Gesuit's website in Italy I found that Gesuits are divided in priests and not priests (I don't know the right word in English, "secular Gesuits" maybe). Anyway, it seems to me an information to be added; also it clarifies the sentence "Jesuit priests often acted as confessors..."--Truman Burbank 06:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed Georges Lemaitre, after double checking with a Flemish Jesuit who confirmed that he is not a Jesuit but a regular catholic priest who attended a Jesuit college.
xaviervd
Brothers of the Society of Jesus
The "not priests" comment is a reference to the Jesuit Brothers [2] (http://www.jesuits-chi.org/vocations/formation.htm), which should have mention in the article. --Gerald Farinas 18:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I started a stub for Brothers of the Society of Jesus and will work on building it into a full article. --Gerald Farinas 19:03, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
removed section
Many conservative or orthodox Catholics perceive the modern Jesuit order as heavily liberal and disloyal to the Vatican and the teachings of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, a stark shift from their traditional identity as upholders of orthodoxy and the 'crack troops' of the Papacy. However, this criticism probably relates more to the order in the Western world, rather than in the global south, and ignores many prominent conservative or orthodox Jesuits, such as Avery Cardinal Dulles, Jorge Cardinal Bergoglio, and Joseph Fessio.
This is probably true, but could use some support or dePOVing--Tznkai 15:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is not NPOV about it?--Samuel J. Howard 23:26, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
