Talk:Jenin
From Academic Kids
- filmed what IDF claims to be Palestinians carrying out a phoney funeral procession
I think that the "IDF claims" part is unnecessary. The pictures are self-evident and undeniable - looking at them makes anyone with half a brain think "this is a Palestinian funeral". Of course, the Palestinians could claim that the pictures are a fabrication. However, I've not heard so far of such a claim, and if it appears, it should be written down as another sentence, "Palestinians claim the IDF phootage is a falsification". --Uriyan
- Actually I was trying to change to article in a way that anyone who follows the link to the images / movie will watch it with a open mind and then decide what they think about it. Now I found a article (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158947&contrassID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y|) where the Palestinians say that this is wanted Palestinians fleeing. I will try to find some other sources confirming this. --Peter Winnberg, Saturday, May 4, 2002
- That's surely a funny way to flee - in the middle of nowhere (the pictures were filmed from a pilotless aircraft, almost impossible to notice), with a stretcher, bearing a man that can obviously walk on his own, accompanied by a mob and with green (Hammas) flags. One needs only to apply Occam's Razor to determine what was that. --Uriyan
- I added a new link which includes the "funeral" video. The first video seems not to work any longer. I read somewhere on the net that a Palestinian filmmaker claimed to have been making a film at the time. I guess the film was never finished; the actors ran away.Whyerd 17:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For those who keep inserting major changes, talk about them here first in the "Talk" section! You can't force major changes in a communal project by brute force, as you are currently doing. Encyclopaedia are made by intellectual consensus, not force. If you wish to back up your conspiracy theory claims that Jenin was somehow not the source of many homicide bombers against Israel, then you must back up these extraordinary claims with firm evidence. We're willing to read what you have to say, as long as you have logical arguments and reliable sources to back up your claims. [[RK]]
RK: since you are not neutral at all, there's no point in convince you about the truth of "conspiracy theory claims" with "logical" arguments. However, you should accept that there another points of view about what happened in Jenin and that those points of view will not match what you expect to be true.
I don't accept to argument against your thesis Jenin was "the source of many homicide bombers against Israel". Stating that is pointless as just claiming "Israel did a massacre in Jenin against civilians". However in Wikipedia not only the point of view of Israel should be shown, but also the point of view of the palestinians. The _readers_ will decide, based on the points of view (and sources) exposed, what will they accept as truth.
What about this link?
[1] (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/jeninmassacre/EyewitnessJeninMassacre.html)
Is this link enough reliable for you?
Perhaps we could tolerate the occasional parenthetical phrase such as the Israelis, regarded as an occupation force by Arabs, did X. After all, the key to this and related articles on the Arab-Israeli conflit is both (A) what happened (facts) and (B) the meaning of what happened (intrepretation).
To give a personal example, when I was in the US Army I once bit another soldier; he had to have stitches. His statement and mine agreed on that fact. I was not punished, however, because my purpose for biting him was to make him release me from a headlock. The company commander accepted that interpretation of my actions.
I find in discussions of the Middle East partial to close agreement on facts but major disagreement on interpretation. This makes our task as article contributors rather difficult.
Ed Poor, Friday, May 31, 2002
I added an Arab POV, which I think I have attributed properly. Ed Poor, Friday, May 31, 2002
- It should be noted that many Arab writers justify anti-Israeli terrorism on their view that Israel is unjustifiably "occupying" the West Bank.
- Indeed many of these writers disdain the use of the term terrorism to describe their resistance, reserving the term solely for Israel, which they label "terrorist" and "racist".
Of course, the late Sheikh Izz Ad-Din El-Qasam was resisting against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. No, wait. There weren't an Israel or West Bank back in 1935. There were dead Jews though, Jews that he had killed. I will not reintegrate this passage, but link to the general discussion of Palestinian terrorism. --Uriyan
NPOV query: Why is there a "Munich massacre" (2 Israelis, 1 policeman and 5 Palestinians dead) but no "Jenin massacre" ("at least 52 Palestinians, of whom up to half may have been civilians, and 23 Israeli soldiers" dead UN Report (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/index.html))?
- First of all, in Munich Massacre, 11 Israelis died. Secondly, the non-combatant Palestinian casualties were not killed deliberately, but rather died in the course of heavy fighting, which most parties recognize as justified on Israel's behalf, considering the terrorist infrastructure that existed in the city. Declaring it a "massacre" would demand that (a) Israeli soldiers had a choice of killing or not killing the Palestinians and (b) The Palestinians were not anyhow fighting the Israelis. Neither of these conditions was fulfilled. --Uri
- How can there be a battle when its one army with deadly US-imported weapons vs civilians with handguns? Pnd 17:11, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Ever talked to an IDF infrantryman before, Pnd? --Anton Adelson, Western Australia 00:53, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Regarding the changes that I reverted: declaring El-Qasam a "fighter against the Israeli occupation" is simply ludicrous. He died before 13 year before there was an Israel, and 32 years before Israel took over the Territories. Also, is there something wrong in mentioning the streets of Jenin were covered with posters hailing suicide bombers? --Uri
I moved the text from over from [[Jenin Massacre]]. I find having an article with such a title, while no serious party still entertains the notion that a massacre took place (e.g. systematic killing, see above for how I define a massacre) offensive, both to the soldiers that fought in Jenin, to the families of those soldiers who were killed, and to the victims of suicide bombers that came out of Jenin. --Uri
The alleged Jenin massacre of 2002, wherein supposedly 3,000 peaceful Arab Palestinians were killed in cold blood by Israeli troops was acknowledged by Palestinian Authority leaders to have resulted in far fewer deaths than originally announced. The final death toll was around 60 persons.
The Human Rights Watch report stated that it found "no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF". However, the same HRW report did accuse Israel of war crimes, including shooting and running over with a tank a man whose wheelchair flew a white flag, and crushing a paralyzed man in his home.
Amnesty International also came to the conclusion that there was no massacre.
See: Jenin
- Human Rights Watch report on Jenin (http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/jenin0503.htm)
Uri, I have no problem with your movement of the Jenin massacre or even with deleting the article. I only created it to answer someone's question. However, the information needs to be merged into an article somewhere. Would you do this, when you get a chance? --Ed Poor
- Most of the information is already in Jenin. The only information not found in the text is the description of the alleged war crimes. The discussion about the "shooting and running over with a tank a man whose wheelchair flew a white flag, and crushing a paralyzed man in his home." would need much more than just the HRW POV, and ultimately including them would do more harm than good. The major complaint about Israel's conduct is about the use of human shields. That is included in the article. --Uri
Given that HRW states the following: "Many [...] civilians were killed willfully or unlawfully. [...] the IDF used Palestinian civilians as "human shields" and used indiscriminate and excessive force during the operation," it hardly makes sense to reduce mention of these events to an afterthought, not to utterly downplay the involvement of IDF troops and their commanders in war crimes. I have accordingly reinserted references to these events in the main body of the text - hopfefully in an form which all can accept. --Faulenzer
I have never, ever been able to locate any direct quotation of the Palestinian officials who supposedly claimed 3,000 were killed in Jenin. I've come across right-wing Zionist websites saying so -- that's it. They did say that 3,000 were made homeless, which no one contests.
I've never even seen a mainstream source like FOX or NBC make the claim that Palestinian officials have said so. Rather, these sources say that a PA official, Saeb Erekat, claimed 500 were killed -- also false, but with a seed of truth to it.
On April 10, 2002, Erekat told CNN anchor Jim Clancy, "What we're saying, we see an opportunity in the secretary's visit. We want to help in order to insure the success of the secretary's visit, because insuring the success of implementing [UN resolution] 1402 means stopping the killing fields out there, and you know as the numbers I am receiving today is that the numbers of killed could reach 500 since the Israeli offensive began. Thousands of wounded. You know, the Jenin refuge camp is no longer in existence, and now we've heard of executions there."
There you have it. Erekat *never* said that 500 were killed in Jenin, but that 500 had been killed throughout the West Bank during Operation Defensive Shield.
Israeli officials, on the other hand, initially did much to make people suspect a massacre. On April 10, according to Ha'aretz, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres characterized the attack on Jenin as a "massacre". Unnamed military officers said, "When the world sees the pictures of what we have done there, it will do us immense damage."
"According to the Israeli Defence Forces, Israel chose not to bomb the spots of resistance using aircraft as it entered in order to minimize civilian losses [2] (http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/amnesty0407-2.htm), but rather to take hold of the city using infantry."
- Well I think since the Battle of Hue military experts agrees that it's a very bad idea to bomb concrete buildings in an urban zone. A bombed building is a perfect refuge for snipers.
- Ericd 19:49, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- With the amount of explosive Palestinians planted in the camp - there were no bombed building left for a sniper to hide in.
- User: annon
Can someone help me with math? From the Jenin page "They agreed with the total casualty figures provided by the IDF but reported triple the civilian casualties" The IDF reported 52 Palestinian casualties of which 22 were civilian. "They" (not sure if its Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International) agree on 52 but claim 3 * 22 civilians. 3 * 22 = 66. 66 > 52. can this be fixed? does someone have the report that says 3 times? perhaps it was 2 times? (at least 2 * 22 = 44 < 52 is mathematically correct.) OneVoice 21:56, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
changed "triple the civilian casualties" -> "higher proportion of the civilian casualties" so that the arthimatic works after waiting 10 days for a response to the above. OneVoice 20:31, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Is there any truth to and seriousness in the 3000 casualty figure claim claim (yes, two words) or is this the same tactic that was used with Deir Yassin where the casualty figures were inflated by the perpetrators themselves only to trivialize the incident altogether by discrediting the opponents after they took over what appeared to be a self-confessed truth? Pretty disingenuous if you ask me. -- Dissident 23:06, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
i have tried to correct some of the grammar, spelling, etc. mistakes in this article. some of it still does not read well (it is clear that much of this article was written by a non-native english speaker) but it is a start.
i also would like to say that although i am generally sympathetic to israel, this article is completely POV in favor of the israeli position and makes essentially no attempt to remain balanced. --Benwing 02:28, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
- This article is very anti-palistinian. The bold "False Allegations of Massacre" is absurdly POV, no attempt at all of neutrality. Perhaps "Possible Massacre" or similar could be a starting point for a more balanced article. Or possibly a total rewrite is necessary. --Bk0 04:44, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
The article does not expose enough the disgraceful tactics to use the alleged "massacre" for Israel-bashing:
- Guardian, April 20, 2002 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,687656,00.html), definitely not a Israel-sympathetic source:
- It was a fierce battle, not a massacre
- Civilians were offered repeated chance to leave. Those who stayed did so of their own free will to help the fighters
- Red Cross and Red Crescent were offered chance to go into camp but there was a restriction: only one entrance and all vehicles going in or out had to be checked by Israeli army. Few vehicles used it
- There are no missing Palestinian bodies, other than those under the rubble. There is no secret grave in the Jordan Valley or Israel. Palestinian dead in Israeli hands identified, put in bodybags and buried
- Estimate of Palestinian dead is no more than 100, and probably less. Damage to houses about 6% of the camp
- CNN interview with a senior member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad Tabaat Mardawi, April 23, 2002 (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html), not a pro-Israel source: Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps -- "big ones" for tanks and "others the size of a water bottle." He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp.
- Recent news from Iraq (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/20040407-1147-iraq.html): FALLUJAH, Iraq – U.S. Marines in the third day of a battle to pacify this Sunni Muslim city fired a rocket and dropped a 500-pound, laser-guided bomb on a mosque compound Wednesday, and witnesses said as many as 40 people were killed...
Compare to the IDF soldiers going on foot house-to-house (would you call booby-trapped "civilian"?) and not entering mosques and churches out of respect. There are a lot more, all one needs is little NPOV. --Humus sapiens|Talk 05:41, 9 May 2004 (UTC) In general, pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian are not necessarily the same. I'd like the WP to work for peace, against any unjust killings, booby-traps and false accusations. --Humus sapiens|Talk 05:55, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
- Fine, add all that in provided you also provide a reasonable counter-argument to each and remove the obviously discriminatory language as I cited above. --Bk0 06:00, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
This raised questions over whether the Palestinians falsify other evidence as well.
Is this really necessary? I've removed it from the artilce, seems like it would be more relevant under the main Palestinian terrorism article. Bob McDob 10:27, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm a pretty pro-Israel guy, but this article still reads like it has a pro-Israel POV. It's not the facts that are presented; it's the way it's written.
This part in particular bothers me:
"Initially, officials of the Palestinian Authority claimed that the Israelis had deliberately massacred 3,000 people, and were burying them in mass graves. Some advocates of Palestinian nationalism claimed that "the Jews" were starting a "Holocaust" against Arabs. Many Western news agencies reported these claims uncritically and without confirmation."
- Were many Western news agencies claiming that the Jews were starting a Holocaust against Arabs? Because that's the way it reads right now, whether it was intended or not.
- Provide a definite source (not "officials") for the 3,000 number or retract the claim (also cite at least one of the Western news agencies which were reporting this number uncritically).
- Provide a definite source (not "some advocates") for the claim of a Holocaust against Arabs beginning at Jenin.
--68.43.122.246 14:37, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Type "Jenin massacre" or "jenin massacre + 3000" at Google and you will have planty of sources.
- "An Israeli military source told AFP some 250 Palestinians were killed. The Palestinians say hundreds more were killed and their information minister, Yasser Abed Rabbo, on Friday accused Israel of digging mass graves for 900 Palestinians in the camp." [3] (http://www.rense.com/general24/900.htm)
- Report that mention an accusation of 3000 death by PA officials: [4] (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20052002-032952-3644r)
- Comparing the battle of Jenin to Nazi atrocities by prp-Palestinian groups: [5] (http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/article_5386.shtml).
- MathKnight 19:16, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"false allegations of massacre" is too POV , I think.
Can we change this? I think "Inflated body count" or "death toll exaggerated" or something to that effect. The event certainly took place, and there were certainly defenseless and unresisting people ruthlessly killed. It was a massacre but I do agree the claims of the number of dead may have been exaggerated.
Defining "massacre", my dictionary says: " A savage and indiscriminate killing of human beings, as in warfare, acts of persecution, revenge, etc. ... a a massacre is the killing of those who are defenseless or unresisting, as in barbarous warfare... " would you prefer the term "slaughter"? which is " ...frequently applied to any great loss of life in battle, riot, etc. ...? Probably not, as the loss of life wasn't great enough to satisfy you that it was a slaughter, I think... perhaps "butchery" stressing the "ruthlessness and wantonness" of the killing, but which "compares the killing of men to the slaughter of cattle." Maybe the term "carnage" which "retains much of its original sense as heaped up bodies of the slain, and refers to the result, rather than the process of a massacre or slaughter", so the "false allegations of massacre" headline is misleading, as there WAS a massacre. In interests of NPOV-ness I think it should be changed.Pedant
Have you actually read the accounts? It was not indiscriminate killing. The Palestinians were neither "defenseless" nor "unresisting": they had guns, bombs and boobytraps. One the cited articles mentions that Palestinians admitted that some of them were killed by their own boobytraps. Rcaetano 08:35, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- And if they surrendered (which from reading several accounts some did)? If they were killed indiscriminately wouldn't that be a massacre? Its important to note that some accounts say that did happen (but only 2-3). Straw man logic doesn't work and thus what you've said is flawed.
- For the record, whilst I don't like the inclusion of emotive words (such as massacre) in an encyclopaedia, it was the catch word of the time (and also there was no massacre). I personally feel the way its worded is a little too emotive though. I'd prefer it to be along the lines of "exaggerated body count leading to the accusation of a massacre". -- Tomhab 11:52, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the guy talking about "false allegations of massacre" being too POV... if the Boston Massacre was a massacre and 5 people were killed after throwing stones, then I think so can Jenin, in technicality.
The UN Report is a valid reference
The UN Report is not a Palestinian report as MathKnight continuously and falsely claims. The Israelis obstructed the UN investigation and refused to provide their version of the events. It's still the official UN report on the events in Jenin even if Israelis don't agree with it. It is not proper to delete reference to the UN report and insert the Israeli POV as if the Israeli POV is objectively correct and the rest of the world is wrong. Report of the Secretary-General prepared pursuant to General Assembly resolution ES-10/10 [6] (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/) The United Nations today released the Secretary-General’s report on recent events in Jenin and other Palestinian cities. This report was requested by the General Assembly in May (resolution ES-10/10, adopted on 7 May 2002), after the disbandment of the team which the Secretary-General, supported by the Security Council (resolution 1405 of 19 April 2002), had proposed to send to Jenin to establish the facts on the ground. The report was, therefore, written without a visit to Jenin or to the other Palestinian cities. It relies, as the Assembly requested, on “available resources and information”, including submissions from six United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain, and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations from a range of perspectives. The Palestinian Authority did submit information, while the Government of Israel did not. In an effort to present as complete a picture as possible, the report makes use of publicly available information from the Israeli Government. The report covers a period running from approximately the beginning of March to 7 May 2002. It sets out the context and background of the situation in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory. It also describes the security, humanitarian and human rights responsibilities of both parties. It briefly charts the rising violence since September 2000, which had, by 7 May 2002, caused the deaths of 441 Israelis and 1,539 Palestinians. "[7] (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SG2077.doc.htm) --Alberuni 20:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The citation you brought is taken from Palestinian report submitted to the Secretary-General, pursuant to General Assembly resolution ES-10/10 of 7 May 2002, on the recent events in Jenin and in other Palestinian cities, which is not the UN report. MathKnight 09:42, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
NPOV edits
I'm interested in cleaning up the article in order to get rid of any POV comments (most of which aren't serious). Does anyone actually still monitor this page that I can talk changes over? Otherwise I'll just crack on.
Examples of the kind of edits I'm thinking of making:
- Talking about the gross initial exaggeration of the civilian death count is a little disdainful. Simply changing wording will make it a bit more factual and encyclopaedia-like.
- Jenin was the center of civil unrest during the so-called Great Uprising of Palestinians. Although including the words "so-called" isn't inaccurate its also not particular NPOV - instantly takes away its legitimacy which isn't the point of the article. George Bush has his "War On Terror", but you don't need "so-called" in there.
I probably don't know as much about the incident as the writers so don't plan on changing details (just wording), but there are a couple of discrepancies that I'd like to talk over to anyone who's still alive in this talk page. -- Tomhab 01:15, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I keep an eye on the article (since it was under attack about two months ago). So far, your edits seem reasonable and fair. MathKnight 14:13, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Sure - I'm keen on doing just small edits to appease and make slightly more NPOV, but anything you don't feel appropriate feel free to revert (just the ones you don't like anyway).
- I'm not going to edit the article on this but... is there any reason why this link from a reputable UK newspaper (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,684251,00.html) talks about apache helicopters swarming and "firing bursts of cannon-fire every five minutes". I realise from the date given it must have been a pretty rushed-to-press report but is it simply wrong? The article says aircraft weren't use, and makes no mention of helicopters, but implies to me that they covered by the statement about aircraft.
- I'd just like to say that its a genuine question, not an attack on any claims from either side. -- Tomhab 21:43, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
