Talk:Hypnosis

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Contents

1 article needs reformat 2 popular culture 3 no one can really be hypnotized against their will 4 Sleep? 5 Freud's gums 6 Scientific evidence that hypnosis is "real" 7 Stage Hypnosis? 8 material removed from article 9 what about the clean up notice? 10 very bad article 11 "Definitions" 12 Skeptic society of USA

article needs reformat

This page needs more organisation with more headings. This will probably mean an upheaval of the content (although little deletion). However, the content will need to be moved. This does not mean that content is less important than other content just because it does not appear at the beginning of the article.

Good job Lauciusa. The major reformat is looking much better now.

Suggestion from TJMonaghan Subheading required for Benefits to Clients for the clinical application of Clincial Hypnosis.

British article that I found, that could be incorporated into the main body of text. Note: for american readers The primary care NHS GP sugery clinic described below is a health clinical funded by the british govt's Health Dept.

Dobbin, A. et al (2004) Impact on health status of a hypnosis clinic in general practice. Contemporary Hypnosis Vol 21 (4): 153-160

The impact on health status of hypnosis was investigated in a primary care NHS GP surgery clinic, with referrals from a Local Health Care Cooperative (LHCC) with 85,000 patients. The Medical Outcomes Study Short Form-36 Health Survey (SF36) pre and post treatment was completed by patients referred with mental health problems, medical problems and for smoking cessation. One hundred and fifteen patients successfully completed SF36 questionnaires before and six weeks after the intervention. Categories of treatment were smoking cessation, mental health, and medical. In the case of referrals for smoking cessation there were no significant changes in mental, social or physical function six weeks after the intervention. In the case of mental health referrals, which were predominantly anxiety related, there was a large and significant effect on the SF-36 in emotional role and mental role and a moderate effect on social role and mental health. Self-hypnosis was in widespread use after treatment, even in those whose perceived problem appeared not to have improved. The results suggest that simple hypnosis techniques could have a significant impact on mental health. This could have implications for promoting mental health as well as for treating mental illness, and needs to be tested further by a randomized, controlled trial.

TJMonaghan

popular culture

A paragraph needs to be added about hypnosis as portrait in popular culture, along with refrences to films for example.

Excellent idea. Such a section should probably include the infamous Svengali and the way that hypnosis has often been used (for instance, in The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari and the Dr. Mabuse films) as a political allegory. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:08, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Japanese thriller Cure strongly involves hypnosis too. Junkyardprince | Talk 21:35, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Rebroad changed the second paragraph of the introduction to remove the prefix "In popular culture and fiction, ...". I'd like to revert this; I feel it is important to distinguish between the fictional portrayal of hypnotism and actual phenomenon. The popular culture version of hypnotism consistently portrays hypnotism in a certain way. On the other hand, there is great disagreement even inside the hypnosis community regarding what hypnosis is; with some groups denying that the practices of another group even constitute hypnosis. As a result, it is easy to fall into a semantic quagmire that while superficially appearing to be an argument about the nature of hypnosis is instead an argument over the definition of the word. In addition, from a strictly stylistic perspective, the introduction to the next paragraph ("While hypnosis in the real world is often ascribed these characteristics to varying degrees ...") does not make sense without a contrasting introduction to the first paragraph. Lauciusa 04:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

no one can really be hypnotized against their will

What I've read is that under normal circumstances this is true, but that hypnosis has been successfully used to brainwash prisoners of war. In this case, it is used in conjunction with sleep deprivation, etc. Does anyone know more authoritatively if this is true? CyborgTosser 11:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Hypnotism is just a state of suggestibility and there is a correlation (although not causal) between someone's suggestibility and their likelihood of being hypnotised. If we take this premise to the situation that you mention, it might be that someone who is not suggestible would be able to be 'hypnotised' against their will. Even in a stage setting a hypnotist will have to select those who will be used for the show. Not everyone will be 'hypnotised'. However, someone's suggestibility may be 'enhanced' through other factors, such as sleep or food deprivation. If someone has other stronger motives, they may be willing to become open to suggestions. It makes things much easier if you always think of suggestibility, instead of a different-state. Kabads

As a psyche major and amateur hypnotist/psychoanalyst, I can tell you authoritatively that much (prob most) of what you hear about hypnosis is probably false, and that myths abound. In fact, as best as I can tell, myths are encouraged, as they help to reduce public aprehension, stigma and so forth in regards to hypnosis. And if you want to know more about making people do whatever you want, no matter who they are, check out The Manchurian Candidate, Brainwashing, MKULTRA and particularly the work of Dr. Ewan Cameron. I warn you, it might scare the #*!! outta ya ;) Sam Spade 19:36, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

• • I have practised Hypnotism for about fifteen years and have frequently seen instances where people cannot, will not accept hypnotic suggestions against their wishes. Even someone who is in a deep hypnotic trance will bounce out of hypnosis very quickly if an unwanted or inappropriate suggestion is made. It is important to distinguish between "being Hypnotized", i.e put in a hypnotic trance and "accepting Hypnotic suggestions". A good hypnotic subject can be put into a trance whilst attempting to resist the state. This is possibly because a hypnotic trance is not very different from sleep. However such a person is no more suggestible than any other sleeping person.

It is possible that maltreatment such as sleep deprivation may increase a person's suggestibility but that is not hypnosis. Large sums of money can have the same effect and would probably be more reliable. ping 07:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

I have to say, I think Dr. Cameron could convince anybody of anything. Of course his method includes erasing their memories so completely the patient I heard about had to be taught to walk and speak again ;) As to whether this involved hypnotism or not is debatable, but obvious it involved ALOT of other techniques as well. Sam Spade 06:51, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Sleep?

There is absolutely no scientific evidence to suggest that hypnosis is not very different to sleep. Brainwave analysis shows that they are extremely different.

• • A person who is hypnotized and not brought out of the trance drifts into a state indistinguishable from sleep. My own experience of being hypnotized suggests a mental state bordering on sleep without actually surrendering consciousness. The brainwaves may be different but observation which is also a valid scientific tool does suggest that hypnosis is not very different from sleep.ping 08:51, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - I don't think good science is built on your own experiences, and I think most scientists would agree here. Hypnosis is not like sleep.

• • On the contrary: all science is based on observation and experience. It is thinking of rationalal explanations for the observations that gets difficult especially with something as nebulous as hypnosis. I still think it is valid to say that hypnosis is like sleep but also it is very different in someways ie brainwaves. ping 08:51, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

However having written that I am aware that the difficulty may lie in the definition. i have never seen a really good definition of hypnosis and I am not sure it is possible in English. Practically every definition have seen is really just a summary of observations. "You are hypnotized when you show the signs of being a hypnotized person" Not a good definition.

ping 08:10, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Freud's gums

I agree with Golbez that too much was removed, but the explanation that Freud's disenchantment with hypnosis came about only because his gums were bad and therefore he couldn't lead people into hypnotic trance seems frankly preposterous. Can anyone lend support to the claim, or should it really be removed? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:53, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Scientific evidence that hypnosis is "real"

I added the following paragraph: "However, some controlled scientific experiments seem to suggest that hypnosis may change conscious experience in a way not possible when people are not under hypnosis, at least in "highly hypnotizable" people. For example, according to one of these experiments, color perception was changed by hypnosis in "highly hypnotizable" people as determined by positron emission tomography (PET) scans." I also added a link to that study. I ignore if the study is representative, but it seems to have been at least interesting. My intention is to add to the neutrality of the discussion. The first impression I got from the article is that there were no serious evidence that hypnosis could be a real neurological phenomenon. This seems not to be the case for some experts, (see for instance [1] (http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2000/september6/hypnosis-96.html)), although it is clear that this is still the subject of debate.

Stage Hypnosis?

So what about this topic? Is it all bull? Or is it real?

Exactly, it's most likely bull and I was surprised nothing was even said about that in the section. :p Are people seriously believing a hypnotist can basically just snap his fingers and they'll immediately enter hypnosis? That's what they use to do -- a two second process of him saying "Sleep" and snapping his fingers. Anyone can do that. And then it's not even known if and how it exists among scientists. How gullible are people really -- it's obviously for the show, or else hypnotism would be far more commonly used in society and not just on TV shows and questionable experiments to treat e.g. phobias. Even a channel airing one of these shows had to have a disclaimer at the start of the program telling it was only entertainment and nothing guaranteed about the realism. What does that tell you? - Jugalator 03:41, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Jugalator appears to know nothing about this topic otherwise he would not have made his comments.

It is real: however the circumstances that created this "realness" need to be understood. Firstly, look at the environment - maybe hall full of excitement: this creates a trance like state in many. The hypnotist will have a choice a many suitable, highly suggestable individuals. Secondly this trance state is enhanced when the suggestable subject gets on the stage. Third, there is an expectation - the subject expects to be placed into a hypnosis. Next, there is an unwritten contract between the subject - that hypnosis is to be performed, and that the subject agrees to this contract, by going into trance - there will be no conscious resistance. The combination of these steps in a suggestable subject are such that the induction, when performed, will appear instantaneous.

A interesting point to note is that the longest running hypnosis show is in Hollywood. Lots of suggestable people with creative minds in the locality. TJMonaghan

material removed from article

Removed the following material as it is factually dubious only in those places where it is not completely wrong. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:56, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hypnosis is just another word for mind control. In hypnosis a person, mind, is talked into doing things or into perceiving or not-perceiving things that the mind is usually told to either remember or forget in any imaginable combination. Thus a hypnotized mind can be told to remember or not remember that it is hypnotized. Hypnosis, words, can also tell a mind to remember or not remember a hypnotized event after the event occurs. Or the hypnosis can tell a mind to remember something a little different or even something totally different from the hypnotized event that did, or did not happen depending on the hypnosis and its events. Hypnosis thus works like a computer connected to a mind that we also call a brain.

Like a computer connected to a mind, brain, the mind’s hypnotist can make the mind do or not do, remember, or not remember, perceive or hallucinate anything; and then create everything in the imaginary outside universe that the mind could ever want to imagine and thus hallucinate to feel, taste, hear, sense, see and smell without the mind ever being aware that it is hypnotized. Perhaps the best example of hypnosis comes to us in the once banned 1962 movie Manchurian Candidate. The subject of mind control goes back to the dawn of history. The leaders of the assassins perfected this mind control, which was one form of hynosis or another, before the crusades.

what about the clean up notice?

Who took out the clean-up notice? This is still unmitigated academic garbage that skirts the issue that hypnosis is verbal mind control. "Hypnosis, as defined by the American Psychological Association Division of Psychological Hypnosis, " AND how does the CIA define hypnosis? Is hypnosis that much different from from cult or religious indoctrination? .. -geepee 00:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

very bad article

I just made some changes that I'm sure will bother some people. I cleaned up and removed some biases from a few sections and even removed a couple paragraphs. I didn't want to, but the article is so incredibly biased. It sounds like it came from 1960s academia rather than modern hypnosis or even 1960 hypnotherapy. Claims like "anyone could be hypnotised except perhaps the very young." What is that about? Modern hypnotherapy knows that young children are amongst the easiest to hypnotise. Also the suggestibility studies need to be better referenced and discussed. They did some real harm to the field of hypnosis. The main criticisim is that they had a single induction tried on many people and then drew all sorts of conclusions about hypnotizability that are just plain wrong. There is no single induction in hypnosis. It's a dynamic experience with constant two web feedback going on. I hope someone will rewrite this whole article. I thnk it needs to be written in a way that covers all the major views without bias, have proper formatting structure, and definitely stops taking the 1960s academic views for granted. Another thing, definitely include some discussions about the AMA in the article and the phases they went through on trying to deal with hypnosis. And you can't have a hypnosis article without a few sentences on what stage hypnotists do and a couple paragraphs on the effects milton erickson and then NLP had on the field.

This is fine except that you went about the cleanup in the wrong way. You simply replaced what you believed was the inaccurate view with what you believed was your more accurate view -- without explaining how we should know that your side of the disagreement is the accurate one. Please don't take this is "they won't let me make changes to this highly inaccurate article!" But try to make your changes more slowly, so that you can show at each step why your new version is better-referenced than the old one. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:15, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"However, some controlled scientific experiments seem to suggest that hypnosis may change conscious experience in a way not possible when people are not under hypnosis, at least in "highly hypnotizable" people. For example, according to one of these experiments, color perception was changed by hypnosis in "highly hypnotizable" people as determined by positron emission tomography (PET) scans. Other claims that hypnosis has been used with variable success for hundreds of applications, including entertainment, analgesia and psychoanalysis are widespread and well-documented.

for this to remain, it should be referrenced. it has no reference and therefore should not remain. Please add. Kabads 21:08, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From the external links section of the article:

• Hypnotic Visual Illusion Alters Color Processing in the Brain (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/8/1279), Am J Psychiatry 157:1279-1284, August 2000.

How does this not count as a reference? -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This does count as a reference, but is not linked in any way to the text. The text claims that experiments suggest something, but do not say what experiments, and so they are not referenced. To say "some controlled scientific experiments" is vague. Don't say "some" - explicitly reference the experiments (authors and year published and journal). Kabads 22:37, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

in fact, reading that journal entry (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/8/1279), I'm surprised it was published as it doesn't compare with a control group, instead only measuring highly hypnotisables - not very good practice at all. How can you compare the dependent variable when you only have one group? Kabads 22:40, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So you claim I just removed what I thought was biased and replaced it with my view? Care to give an example before you reintroduce the bias? This article is very flawed. Making statements about children, eldery, intoxicated and people unable to concentrate being difficult hypnotizable is just rediculous. As a practicioner and someone who has studied many years I am almost offended by an article that makes such blatently incorrect and misleading statements. This article looks like it needs to be rewritten to be salvaged, but for the time being all this nonsense about concentration and the will of the hypnotist over their patient has be removed. If you are going to make any claims about the state of hypnosis please refer to it as being the view of an individual or a group, and not modern psychology. They are greatly divided over their views, so allowing any one author or school of hypnosis to rule the article is huge a mistake. It would be best if we cited many opposing views in a clear fashion, but definitely don't allow any one viewpoint to rule, because even amongst the great PHDs there are few things that are taken for granted in hypnosis. I do not believe I have now or ever added a bias into an article. If I have made a mistake and did so please explain where and how. Thank you.

"Definitions"

The very first sentence of the article states "Hypnosis does not have a single definition that is universally applicable," but this does not seem to me to be a useful way to explain the debate. There are arguments about whether it exists; there are arguments about what it can and cannot affect; but the basic definition seems to me to be fairly universal. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Skeptic society of USA

A new subheader was added to give the views of "the Skeptic Society of USA". There's a problem with this: "Skeptic Society of USA" gets no hits. Neither does "Skeptic Society of the USA"; "Skeptic Society of America" only gets two hits. Either this is a non-notable group or someone misremembered the name, in which case we have to ask whether they're misremembering the group's position as well. I've reverted until we get more clarification. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:41, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I did add that subheader. And what search engine did u use? If u google it then u will get nearly 100,000 results. The very FIRST one for "Skeptic society of us" or "skeptic society of usa" or anything is the official site of http://www.skeptic.com And in the home page is the link "What is the Skeptics Society?" which lists their manifesto and includes the sentence I added here culled from them.

As a matter of fact, I also saw a TV programme where such paranormal things are investigated and generally dismissed by a skeptic (maybe this group in question?). but the one on hypnosis was one where the "skeptic" himself is reported to have said that he has to admit that he was "forced" to do what he thought was impossible under hypnosis.

Moreover another programme on discovery channel really showed people with phobias like arachnophobia and ophidiophobia being hypnotised and handling the said animals after the therapy. Under quacks anything can be misused, but under the right person hypnotism can be a useful tool.

Hope, you will revert it back.--Idleguy 15:07, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Google is in fact exactly what I used, searching on the names you were giving for the group. If you were getting 100,000 results, I believe you must have been searching without the quotes -- in which case any page with the words "skeptic", "society", "of", and "us" would show up as a hit. However, since you've given the homepage, it appears you mean The Skeptics Society (no "of US" or similar in the title.

As I said above, not being able to correctly give the name of the group casts doubt about correctly giving the position of the group. I think it's an excellent idea to add the positions of the Skeptics Society to the article, but I hope you'll give URLs or other references to where you're finding the information so that we can verify that it's what the Skeptics Society is saying. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:04, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I've given the address in the previous reply. Anyway it's http://www.skeptic.com And in the home page is the link "What is the Skeptics Society?" which lists their manifesto and includes the sentence I added here on hypnosis which I culled from them. Hope now it's ok to reinclude the paragraph with the reference? Idleguy 02:47, May 7, 2005 (UTC)