Talk:Greek Fire

Moving attribution from article to talk:

One other incendiary substance, perhaps that "secret ingredient," may have been magnesium, which will burn under water, and is a principle constituent in incendiary bombs of modern warfare. [courtesy Suzanne Turgeon, Clark County Museum, Henderson, NV]

I always thought there was phosphorus in it. Chameleon 00:40, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Greek Fire 2 Magnesium 3 The Chinese 4 breakdown parts

Greek Fire

The speculation of whether Greek Fire contained a "secret ingredient" of either sodium, phosphorus or magnesium leaves one wondering. Scientifically, the base chemical compound (liquid) would have to be homogenous to flow smoothly through the delivery system to the nozzle.

Magnesium has a melting point of 992°K = 648.85°F or 1199°C. This would require a closed vessel at high temperatures and equally high pressures. Since Bitumen boils at approximately 350°F the likelihood of an explosion in a closed vessel due to a high-pressure increase would preclude this. Sodium has a melting point of 371°K = 208.13°F or 97.85°C and Phosphorus a melting point of 317°K = 110.93°F or 43.85°C. The likelihood of either of these elements being the one that would not go out when subjected to water is more likely. Sodium/water chemical reaction: 2 Na + 2 H2O > 2 NaOH + H2 producing a bright red flame

Phosphorus/Damp Air at room temperature reaction: P4(s) + 5O2(g) P4O10(s) Reaction of Phosphorus Pentoxide in water leaves an acidic residue following a highly exothermic reaction and water vapor. P4O10 --+2H2O--->H4P4O12---+2H2O--->2 H4P2O7---+2H20--->4 H3PO4

Phosphorus Pentoxide is used as a dehydrator due to the water evaporating property.

Given that the low boiling point of the Sodium and the red flame, it is more highly probable that sodium was the additive.

Magnesium

This was removed from the article because magnesium was supposedly unknown to the Byzantines:

"One other incendiary substance, perhaps that secret ingredient may have been magnesium, which will burn under water, and is a principal constituent in incendiary bombs of modern warfare."

Our magnesium article says pure magnesium is produced using electrolysis, but surely some form of magnesium was known in the middle ages. Does it not come from Magnesia, which is an extremely ancient site? Adam Bishop 18:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Chinese

A recent addition says that Song China got the recipe from the Greeks. How? I thought that the recipe was a close secret. And if it went from Byzantium to China, it should have been known by the Arabs. And there would be some recipe in the Chinese archives. --Error 02:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems dubious...I've removed it for now.

I've also de-linked Kallinikos, and that article now redirects here. I don't think there is anything more to say about him that is not already in this article. Adam Bishop 08:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

breakdown parts

can we break these down to categories such as History, Uses, Secrecy, Modern Day Comparisons, etc.? And can the final paragraph be separated into a "see also" section? also, shouldn't the F of fire be capitalized, as it is a proper noun? or is this a naming convention of wikipedia that i have to learn about?--mysekurity 04:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)