Talk:Graham Hancock

Whatever people think about this guy and however he does his research we have to have a NPOV on this. --Lukeisham 07:43, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree -I hope that you think my additions have not changed this. The Horizon programme is certainly an important issue for pro and anti-Hancock-ers adamsan 23:45 18 April 2004 (BST)

Yep, fair enough, Adamsan. I like the format of a factual/details paragraph and then paragraphs dealing with the controversy. --Lukeisham 00:52, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hancock is either one of two thing: A man who is lying and doesn't know it, or a man who is lying and does. I don't know which is worse. I am the one who edited the page originally to show the facts; that he's a New Age pseudoscientist and pseudoarchaeologist. These facts are established and not debatable in any sort of informed setting. However, I know that if I change it back, someone will just come behind me and give it the so-called 'fair' treatment. So I wash my hands of the whole affair. If Wikipedia wants to provide bad or wrong information, well, who am I to stop them? --jerryb1961

My personal opinion is that the man is a clever con-man exploiting the public's thirst for fantastic tales just deeply, deeply stupid or just lacks any discriminatory thought processes at all. Either way, I agree that the vast corpus of material that explicitly or implicitly makes a mockery of his emissions should be acknowledged in the article and I have had a go at it. I am willing to take on the role you have vacated and will watch this page to be sure that any pro-Hancock sentiments get a paragraph detailing precisely why his latest theory is a load of BS. Adamsan 22:50, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, so I disagree with Hancock and think that he works outside the academic world but we can't call him a pseudoscientist because that term sounds just as crackpot as his claims. Isn’t it better in neutral terms to describe what he claims and then show clearly and carefully the evidence against him? Doesn't that debunk far more effectively then calling him a pseudoarchaeologist? Furthermore how is something not debatable? --Lukeisham 11:00, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• I agree with Lukeisham that Graham Hancock should not be called 'pseudoscientist', becaue GH doesn't pretend to be a scientist at all. He could be called so if he pretended to have scientific knowlegde, or untruly attributed himself any scientific titles. He does not do so. Everyone may speculate about some unexplained (or not fully explained) things and it does not make him 'pseudoscientist' unless he claims to be a scientist. Everyone may take part in a debate and it doesn't make him a stupid person or a liar. Thus, I hold the term 'pseudoscientist' to be pejorative and POV -- (Critto, but unlogged)

His highly flexible approach to the available evidence does show a disingenousness and I don't think he has to make the statement I am a scientist before we're allowed to prefix that with 'pseudo'. He does try to be scientific: the New Scientist review of 'Underworld' linked at the bottom of the article says Sad though this stuff is, there are some signs that Hancock is now trying to understand the scientific norms he continues to "challenge". Speculation is fine but he continues to fail to produce any evidence, he misleads the public (by claiming links between Easter Island and Giza for goodness sake) and he craftily edits television interviews with others to wrongly give the impression his views have support. All these techniques are those of someone who examines a scientific subject without using objective scientific methods. That is pseudoscience which wikipedia also defines as ...any body of knowledge purporting...to be of an even higher standard of knowledge. That describes Hancock's entire corpus. That he surrounds his outlandish statements with phrases such as to my mind this looks like... and ...could there be something the archaeologists have missed? provides a figleaf of harmless speculation hiding the pseudoarchaeology of his approach. I have adjusted my opinion of Hancock written above as he must at least be cleverer that the people who continually buy his books. adamsan 08:30, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I wonder how many have actually read beyond the opening sentences of one of Mr. Hancock's books. --Jibegod 21:53, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jibegod. I certainly welcome your additions and admit that I've only seen Hancock's TV work and haven't sprung for any of his books. I do dislike the use of 'show' to describe Horizon though. Although the programme isn't as good as it was, I do feel the term has pejorative overtones. I also feel that 'which all ancient historical civilizations sprang' ought to be replaced with 'which he believes all ancient historical civilizations sprang'. adamsan 22:19, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough --jibegod 19:42, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

May 2005 Edits

The following has been edited into the article: Considering that his analysis of data suggests many mistakes and errors of judgement on the behalf of historical academics, their defensive view of Hancock is to be expected. In his own defense, Hancock claims that the orthodox establishment only maintains their arguments based on erroneous data for the sake of preserving their academic reputation

• Because of course, Hancock doesn't need to prove his theories, it's everyone else who is wrong.

If that's your point of view, then you should be more supportive of my edits. If you're just being fascetious, I'm not surprised. GabrielAPetrie

One example is the ignoring by egyptologists of the evidence, backed by geological researchers, that the weathering of the Sphynx would have required a torrential downpouring of rain over a prolonged period of time, placing its origins not in the pharaonic era but before that time when the region of the historically arid Sahara still sustained tropical, rainforest weather. As for the reason why Egyptologists refuse to consider the evidence of geologists in determining the actual era of the creation of the Sphynx, Hancock also cites documented incidences of the destruction of archeaological evidence and even the strong-arming of unorthodox researchers in the fields of egyptology and archeaology by their respected establishments.

• Please follow the links at the bottom of the page. eg From the Horizon transcript:

"But the [Sphinx] erosion argument has not stood up to the scrutiny of geologists. Erosion on the Giza plateau does not depend on water. The Giza limestones contain salts and these have proved to cause destructive levels of erosion in very short periods of time. There is no hard evidence that the Sphinx is any older than the orthodox date. "

On the other hand, other geologists (there are more than two) insist that the vertical erosion on the sphynx could not have been caused by available rainfall since the (establishment-)alleged era of its construction, and could not have been formed by blowing wind, either. While wind has caused horizontal erosions on the sphynx, geologists have asserted that the vertical erosions on the sphynx, sphynx temple, and osirion must have been caused by torrential rainfall. Other megaliths at giza since the (establishment-)alleged date of not just the sphynx but every other monument there do not also show the same erosion. GabrielAPetrie

However, considering that the numbers and densities of 'famous' (read: arbitrary) landmarks in the region of New York are much higher than the numbers, densities, and prominence of ancient temples per their regions, that rebuttle has little relevance.

• The temple complex at Ankor Watt has numerous sites to which Hancock has also applied celebrity (read:arbitrary) significance in his dot-to-dots whilst ignoring others. (see quote below)

The rebuttle of Angkor/Draco is really limited to itself. Angkor, first of all, is not as ancient as any of the other sites which Hancock discusses. Hancock asserts that it was probably planned with the same spiritual purpose in mind but clearly the temples are not similar in terms of megalithic feats and other suprises. Angkor does not share the same antiquity or the same megalithic feat as the other temples, and so of course it does make a good comparison to other modern, sprawling sites such as New York City. However, you can't pull the same brush-off with the alignments Giza/Orion+Leo or any of the other sites/constellations that deal with much fewer points and of far greater prominence per site. GabrielAPetrie

In actuality, the locations of the megalithic structures is public record and available to anyone, as are the locations and appearance of the constellations. In the books themselves, the locations and appearances of the temples and constellations are presented accurately, and the reality of the temple placements aligning to the constellations is a simple matter for anyone to study and see for themselves.

• Which particular megalithic structures are you talking about? The Horizon programme demonstrated how wrong he his at Ankor. Quote:

"ELEANOR MANNIKA (University of Michigan): This hypothesis is based on the fact that certain temples are placed in their position because they have to follow a pattern that evokes the constellation Draco, so if we look at this we see the beginning apparently is the head right here at Angkor Vat and the pattern goes from there up to Phnom Bakheng which is this enormous central mountain. Then it travels up here to (TEMPLE NAME) Thom and then it goes over here to (TEMPLE NAME) and from (TEMPLE NAME) it goes to (TEMPLE NAME). Then it goes to (TEMPLE NAME), then it goes to (TEMPLE NAME), out here to (TEMPLE NAME) built in the 12th century. I see a vague resemblance of course because it goes up and down and off, but actually the tail of Draco goes way up like this, it doesn't just go off like that."

Again, that's just angkor. It's not Hancock's fault, or mine, that Angkor was, comparable to the megalithic monuments, a schlock job. It was probably incomplete, but the initial resemblance to Draco is admitted even by the quoted above. GabrielAPetrie

Hancock includes only ten temples in the shape of the constellation Draco, but investigation of the Angkor region has revealed that there are more than 60 temples. It seems arbitrary to use so few out of so many. The correlation he has found begins to look more like coincidence than planning.

The ten temples chosen by hancock, if you had bothered to read "Heaven's Mirror" (which I see isn't even listed, how convenient since it's so thoroughly illustrated with drawings and photographs of all the sites and temples,) were chosen for specific reasons. You seem to have forgotten 'prominence'. And I doubt you can find ancient archaeoastronomical reasons to pick any arbitrary number of New York city buildings. But do try. GabrielAPetrie

• And then the clincher:

"HANCOCK:I'm sure that, that there are academics who can find a dozen reasons why the resemblance of the temples of Angkor to the pattern of the constellation of Draco is accidental and a coincidence and can be explained in all sorts of other ways, but I've put forward my case in as much detail as I can in my work. I think there is a striking resemblance between the basic pattern on the ground and the pattern of the constellation in the sky"

• So it's just a matter of opinion eh Graham? Hey I think Easter Island was a giant drive in cinema! I haven't got any evidence! Follow me, all of you! adamsan 17:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

You seem to have completely ignored the fact that he says 'in my work'.

Actually, he has quite a deal of evidence. What is ABSOLUTELY clear to me, at this point, is that you've viewed a lot of 'skeptical' half-tries at rebuking Hancock's claims but that you haven't actually read any of the books, or, if you have, you haven't absorbed the information very well before getting caught up in skeptic's hysteria.

I'm reverting to my edit, which has less POV and no pseudoskeptical, pseudointellectual half-arguments, and will be continuing to add information concerning Graham Hancock -- NOT Graham Hancock's Frightened Academic Opponents (go make your own article!) GabrielAPetrie 18:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not intended as a repository for incorrect information but hey, I'll play along.

Tell you what, you list some of his evidence and I'll put in some pseudoskepticism. Then you can list some more evidence and I'll rebut with some pseudointellectualism, or maybe a half argument, I haven't decided. Then we can continue until this talk page reaches epic proportions or one of us dies of boredom. I undertake to reference each piece of information I add and hope that you will do the same.

Lety's start with Angor Watt and how only a handful of the 72 major sites there are significant. adamsan 20:09, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

One more thing the NPOV article on Pseudoscience states:

The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly. adamsan 20:31, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

The only problem is that you aren't allowing the minority (Hancock's) view to be represented, at all. I'll have to come back to editing this page sometime when either (a) you grow up (b) some higher wiki authority intervenes to ensure this is an article about Graham Hancock, not about your student angst. Personally, I think (a) will arrive sooner than you'll get bored and/or 'epic'. GabrielAPetrie 21:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

The deal is that we represent the minority angle and then what mainstream science thinks. What we don't do is add our own rebuttals. Putting Hancock's own evidence and defence from verifiable sources in there is fine but not one's own ideas or unsubstantiated claims that he's a victim of an academic conspiracy. That comes under original research and will be removed. adamsan 10:51, 7 May 2005 (UTC)