Talk:European Parliament

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1 == 2 == 3 == 4 Initiating legislation

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I am deleting my own previous suggestion for improvement. Why? I was an idiot and did not observe that the suggestion has already been implemented! Cheers.

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I was under the impression the EU parliament had little actual legislative power. Can anybody provide an authoritative reference one way or the other? - Khendon

See the http://europa.eu.int/abc/index3_en.htm for details. -- till we *) 22:53, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)

The Parliament's legislative powers have been gradually increased since the EU's inception, from negligible to considerable. These days, it is the second chamber of what is basically a bicameral legislature together with the Council of Ministers. The Parliament cannot initiate legislation but it can accept (adopt), amend or reject legislation in tandem with the Council. In most areas of policy it has equal legislative power; very few areas now remain where it can only advise. See [1] (http://www.corbett-euro.demon.co.uk/job_parl.htm) for a detailed discussion. Toby 09:19, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hmm, how about we include what the parliament actually does, apart from begging not to go to strasbourg every month? CJWilly

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Another thing: the note about the largest elections -- I've read the "international simultaneous", but aren't the Indian congress elections (which aren't international, but at least simultaneous) a bit bigger? I'm not sure how many of the 1000 mio people there are allowed to vote, but India is praising itself as the biggest democracy. -- till we *) 22:53, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, i'll amend this - "largest transnational elections" is clearer. Toby 09:19, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Initiating legislation

Sobolewski added the following (actually it was already there, but (s)he rightly highlighted it):

The fact that the European Parliament cannot itself initiate legislation makes it different from most national "parliaments".

It's true that the EP can't initiate legislation, but I would query whether that's unusual among parliaments in general. It's my understanding that most parliaments have little or no power to do so. For instance, the UK Parliament hardly ever initiates legislation, as (to my knowledge) the only way it can do that is through a Private Members' Bill; government support is almost always needed. I suspect this is true of most parliamentary assemblies around the world, though I'm no expert on foreign systems. That would make the European Parliament quite similar to other parliaments in that respect. What do other contributors think? Wombat 20:08, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suppose this comes down to the definition of what it means for a "Parliament" to "initiate" legislation. It would be my understanding that even though 99% of bills in a Westminister-system Parliament are "Government Bills," the act of initiation is still a function of the legislative branch— if, say, a minister had been appointed from outside Parliament, the act of introducing legislation would still have to be done by a parliamentary secretary or somesuch. -The Tom 00:16, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure I agree. The act of adopting that legislation would be down to the legislature, but the initiative, drafting and timetabling is down to the executive, i.e. the government. They can also decide if and when they want to present or withdraw the bill. In other words, the UK Parliament can call for new proposals, but it can't in general require the government to bring them forward, nor can it decide what proposals it wants to consider. That, to my mind, is the exact analogy of the situation in the EU, where the Commission drafts and presents proposals, while Parliament (and Council) amend and adopt or reject them. Wombat 07:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

well, either "initiate" means "conception, drafting and timetabling" or it means "introduce." By choosing your definition you choose your answer. ;) -The Tom 01:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - but my point is this: whichever definition you choose, the UK Parliament (and other Westminster-system parliaments) has the same power to 'initiate' as does the European Parliament. Therefore, whichever definition you choose, the fact remains that the statement "The fact that the European Parliament cannot itself initiate legislation makes it different from most national "parliaments" is false. Wombat 16:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've changed the wording to "makes it different from most national legislative assemblies". This is for a few reasons but most important is that the EP differs in this way from all legislatures, not just "parliaments" (if by that we mean a particular kind of legislature).

On the issue under dispute as I understand it houses of legislatures in almost all countries have the right to initiate legislation. The case can be made that in most country's that follow the parliamentary system this right has been rendered meaningless by the dominance of the executive over the legislature but what matters here is the formal procedure. We say most houses of parliament can iniate legislation because:

• In some systems the cabinet or president has the right to introduce bills themselves, acting in their capacity as president or cabinet. However in many systems (including, I think, the UK) "government bills", even though drafted and endorsed by the executive, are introduced by ministers acting in their capacity as members of parliament.
• Almost every system allows for private members bills. In a parliamentary system the executive may have the ability in practice to decide which bills get debated and to vote down those it dissaproves of but it only has this power because it commands the loyalty of a majority of members. It is a majority of members of parliament, not the executive, who vote down bills.

In a presidential system the right to iniate legislation is not merely a formality but matters a great deal. The EP is closest to a legislative assembly under a presidential system (it is not dominated by the executive) so the right to intiate laws would represent a significant increase in its powers.

I think part of the confusion is the way the word "government" is used in some countries such as the UK. In the UK the "government" can refer to the executive but also to the majority group of MPs who voted in the executive. So to say a bill was "introduced by the government" doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't initiated by a house of a legislature. Iota 20:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that's interesting. Can I just summarise your point to make sure I understand it? Westminster(-type systems) can initiate legislation, strictly speaking, but the fact that they're dominated by a government majority makes that power a bit of a formality. But the EP has no inbuilt majority, so for it, the ability to initiate legislation would be far more significant.

It's a fair point. I suppose the detail of this discussion is too complex to include in the article - which is a shame, because the simple statement as it stands, that the EP can't initiate legislation and other parliaments can, gives a rather simplistic view. It implies an outright weakness when the reality is much more subtle.

Never mind - I suppose Wikipedia is an encyclopedia at the end of the day, not a treatise on political theory. The text is fine as it stands. Thanks. :o) Wombat 08:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)