Talk:Ethnic group

From Academic Kids

I rewrote the introduction to this article to make it clearer and more accurate. I do not want to delte the hard work of someone else, but frankly I just ddidn't understand the earlier version. Here it is:

The biological race too, is usually taken into account, and some consider it as a basic platform on which cultural heritages can be preserved and continued via a genetical perpetuation. This concept is however adversed by those who believe that the ethnic group can be accessed also by spontaneous choice or - more commonly - marriage (allowed exogamy), and is not closed to new adherents.

Besides, some authors suggest that an element of volountarity should always exist in the individuals, in the sense that the appartenance to an ethnic group, if considered as a condivision of culture, necessarily has to be backed by the individual's acceptation. Also, an ethnic group ordinarily expresses its social carachter by evidencing common behaviours in common forms, like ritual or conventional collective actions (even in familiar habits), which are easy to be eventually abandonned. In most systems, the eventual punishment for those individuals who wouldn't follow the "ethnic rules" is only the expulsion from the group so, it is said, any individual is usually free enough to abandon it at will. Opponents stress that the familiar education (quite generally recognized as a distinctive element) often makes it difficult to abandon the original heritage, especially if racial or geographical or linguistic elements force the group to develop an internal solidarity to protect members from external aggression and/or isolation (racism, xenophoby). Sometimes, it is said, there wouldn't really be an alternative.

The element of traditions, which is often linked to the matter, is contested by many, given that it could be externally known and understood only by its main spectacular aspects, thus identifying a form of folklore rather than a deeper condivision of concepts.

At a political regard, an ethnic group is a social entity which has to be respected as a minoritarian yet relevant component of the whole society. In case the ethnic group represents the vast majority (better if near to the totality) of the population within a given state territory, it becomes a nation, which expresses its common culture with self-governmental powers and with international acknowledgement. In this sense, an ethnic group is a minoritarian social group which lives in a system by which it suffers for sometimes relevant differences (like in economy, for instance), in a relationship (when the ethnic group is recognized and accepted) made of tolerance rather than of condivision. When the differences become hard to sustain, from both sides, the majority tends to absorb the ethnic group in itself, often by trying to annihilate its cultural heritage. On the other side, the ethnic group might develop, among its individuals, extremist positions which sometimes explode with violence or terrorism, which can be as dangerous as harder the state's opposition becomes.

An ethnic group, in modern times, usually claims for the respect of its own identity, and this frequently finds an opposition by the state in which they live in, given that a state has a crucial interest in having its population as uniform as possible, in order to avoid secessionism or however fragmentation of the social tissue. This opposition can be expressed with military or police means, or it can be a cultural battle, in which usually a state is able to use richer and more powerful instruments: propaganda, instrumental use of mass-media, school programs. Some noted that even the classification of ethnic groups by mere biotypes (racial carachters, etc.) or geographical provenance, thus ignoring cultural aspects, is a subtile attempt to reduce eventual arguments to mere physiological or administrative differences.

The definition of an ethnic group is often referred to that of ethnicity, but the particular carachters which can identify a human group as an ethnic entity is relevant for legal aspects too. The attempt to delete an ethnic group as such (genocide), is usually punished by most legal systems.

In general, it could be resumed that an ethnic group is a community of human beings who:

• live as a minority inside the state they are in, and claim for the respect for their social entity;
• use a common language (which might be different from the official language of the state in which they live);
• have common familiar and social habits and conventions, often the same religion;
• come, by ancestry, from the same places, usually implying that at some moment a migration has happened and it is probable that a racial element can be in common too, among members.

The above touches on some very important issues, like: what an ethnic group is, conflicts between ethnic groups and nations or states, etc. But it is unclear (often refering to anonymous people who make claims -- I think an encyclopedia article needs to provide explicit information about what scholars or political leaders have made such claims; I also think that many arguments over the use of the term ethnicity, or the status of specific ethnic groups, are particular to specific places and times -- and to try to jumble the all together can lead only to confusion. But I put the deleted material here so people can continue to work on it/develop it, Slrubenstein

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Hi, Slrubenstein. Since the problem discussed in several pages was how to correctly define what an ethnic group is, and why it is important to have a correct definition, my perhaps too quick attempt (but I had warned you it was quick ;-) was meant to draft some essential elements to work on.

Now, we are not looking for a dubbed definition to be used in all the related articles, we want instead a precise definition of an "ethnic group"; also useful, if possible, for the list - in the sense that, before adding a group to the list, we can reflect if the one we are thinking of can really be indicated as an ethnic group.

Names: apart from the fact that for personal problems I can't attach a bibliography I once had (but someone, hopefully, will add it to the concepts), I wouldn't stop to the authors of singular claims because the concept of ethnic group is more political than ethnological or phylosophical, any assertion is then necessarily focused - at its first issue - on single particular positions, even if the concepts later gains a similar condivision across the geographic areas (if we look at specific claims by self-defined ethnic groups, there usually are many similarities among the respective positions, even if the respective situations are different). So, this would perhaps give attention to authors more than to concepts and, just like you noted, to particular rather than to general themes. If we sort out concepts, instead of authors, (IMHO) we would more easily define elements that are not exclusive to the group that expressed it.

I believe that if we quote: I have a dream that my [four] children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, this is exactly what today African and Asian and Chinese people in Italy do think in 2002, not only what the (hopefully) famous author said in 1963 in the United States, in a different context. This is a particular encyclopedia, in which we can describe current topics too (but always in a NPOV). Ethnic groups are a precisely current topic, given that many (military, political, social or cultural) conflicts regard them right now. To be as neutral as possible, I would avoid recalling specific positions (immediately recognizable by eventual names) because we could risk to (in good faith) imply political prejudicial considerations in our vision.

So, I just wanted to reflect together over these points:

• Which are the elements that identify an ethnic group, in presence of what elements we can say we are in front of an ethnic group?
• Is biological race a necessary element?
• Is the belonging to an ethnic group intentional, or is it a mechanical unwanted condition? Can the individual abandon the group, and: if yes how, if not why?
• Is there a pride of appartenance to an ethnic group?
• The autonomous claim for respect by the ethnic group, is it an element we should consider as an identifying factor, or could we externally define a given human aggregation as an ethnic group, despite their eventual passivity on the point? Is it by chance a social-conflict alert?
• What makes an ethnic group different from a nation?
• Is an ethnic group minoritarian by definition?
• How dominant groups deal with minor ethnic groups?
• Which are the respective interests in play?
• How dominant and minoritarian groups respectively act to achieve respective goals?
• Which are the fields in which more commonly an ethnic group feels to be compressed in its "natural" vision? Economy? Religion? Justice? ...?

Eventual sub-topics:

• Is language always distinctive?
• Is dialect distinctive?
• Is an eventual "ethnic literature" necessary for the disticntion? Is an eventual written body of works a necessary element for the definition of an "ethnic culture"?
• Are there any ethnic groups living across different countries and tending to unification? Has there been anything similar in history?
• ... please, add...

I am afraid that in your definition,

An ethnic group is a group of people who identifiy with one another, or are so identified by others, on the basis of either presumed cultural or biological similarities, or both

we miss a basic scholar distinction between ethnology and anthropology: ethnology necessarily considers humanist themes such as history or culture, as fundamental carachters of the study, while anthropology doesn't. Still, it is argued (I hope I can add names, one day) that race is the biological platform above described. This platform, when alone, when not linked to eventual social, historical or cultural elements, is the object of antropology. Also, similarities are not presumed. They are, they have to be scientifically verifiable. As soon as we find a consensus about what is an ethnic group.

But: are we talking about the so-called "ethno-type", as (not unanimously) defined by ethnologists?

As I said before, I think that the concept of ethnic group is prevalently used with reference to political issues. So, it is not a matter of ethnicity, for which we already have an article to expand (which might regard ancient topics too), but we are talking - to be concrete - about people who feel they have common values and cultures needing to be protected from annihilation by stronger cultural entities, usually the states in which they live.

BTW, please, let's keep it clear that folklore and traditions quite generally are described as different things.

Thank you for your comments :-) --G

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Gianfranco,

I am still not sure I understand you. There are some questions I have concerning your musings:

Now, we are not looking for a dubbed definition to be used in all the related articles, we want instead a precise definition of an "ethnic group";

I do not know what a "dubbed definition" is. I do think the defintiion I put in the first sentence is accurate. Perhaps more accurate than precise, but I think that is a good thing. There is much debate over what ethnic groups are and how they operate, and ethnic groups around the world make different claims for themselves. Any good definition that opens an encyclopedia article must be somewhat general. Then the article can review debates over the meaning of the term, and provide different examples of its use.

Names: apart from the fact that for personal problems I can't attach a bibliography I once had (but someone, hopefully, will add it to the concepts), I wouldn't stop to the authors of singular claims because the concept of ethnic group is more political than ethnological or phylosophical,

I disagree with your larger point. Yes, you are correct that ethnic groups are particular and political. But the study of ethnic groups -- which is precisely what an article in an encyclopedia is part of -- involves scholarly research and debate. There are different sides to these debates, and those sides should be cited and named.

I believe that if we quote: I have a dream that my [four] children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, this is exactly what today African and Asian and Chinese people in Italy do think in 2002, not only what the (hopefully) famous author said in 1963 in the United States, in a different context.

I agree with you that this sentiment reflects one attitude towards social justice. I am not sure how it relates to ethnic identity, since King did not mean that "race" didn't matter. But you see, this is my point: what King meant, how it was understood when he said it, and how other people use the phrase today is not evident. There continues to be much research and debate over these things and a good encyclopedia article must educate people about these debates. What is your interpretation of this sentence? What is your evidence that this is how African and Asian (which includes Chinese) people in Italy interpret the sentence? What is your evidence that African and Asian people in Italy share the sentiment (as interpreted)? What research has been done on this?

To be as neutral as possible, I would avoid recalling specific positions (immediately recognizable by eventual names) because we could risk to (in good faith) imply political prejudicial considerations in our vision.

Again, I disagree with you. Accuracy demands that we be clear about specific positions. NPOV does not mean that specific positions are not listed; it means that NO position is presented as having unquestioned authority if that position reflexts a particular context and is only one position among many. NPOV is guaranteed when different specific positions are provided, and the context for these positions made clear.

So, I just wanted to reflect together over these points:

• Which are the elements that identify an ethnic group, in presence of what elements we can say we are in front of an ethnic group?

There is continuing debate over this question and I do not believe that there is any consensus.

• Is biological race a necessary element?

no

• Is the belonging to an ethnic group intentional, or is it a mechanical unwanted condition?

it is negotiated

Can the individual abandon the group, and: if yes how, if not why?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no; why is a good question that people continue to research; there is no clear answer.

• Is there a pride of appartenance to an ethnic group?

I do not know what "appartenance" means, and it is inot in my dictionary. But obviously many people are proud of their ethnicity, and there are plenty of people who are ashamed.

• The autonomous claim for respect by the ethnic group, is it an element we should consider as an identifying factor,

What do you mean? Are you asking whether a group must demand respect for it to be "ethnic?" I can think of many examples where this is not the case.

or could we externally define a given human aggregation as an ethnic group, despite their eventual passivity on the point? Is it by chance a social-conflict alert?

Again, I am not sure what you mean? What do you mean "externally define?" What do you mean by "eventual passivity?"

• What makes an ethnic group different from a nation?

I thought my revision of the article made this clear.

• Is an ethnic group minoritarian by definition?

I believe yes, and one can infer this from the article -- but I do not think it is a necessary part of the definition and it is better if people infer it; I am sure there are some exceptions and some debate over this.

• How dominant groups deal with minor ethnic groups?

Given that this is an issue in almost every country, and that there are at least 50-200 years of history for any given example, the answer to this question could take up thousands of pages. But I do think the second paragraph of the article provides a good basic answer to this question.

• Which are the respective interests in play?

"in play" in what?

• How dominant and minoritarian groups respectively act to achieve respective goals?

Again, a good qquestion but the answer would take years to compile, given all the current research.

• Which are the fields in which more commonly an ethnic group feels to be compressed in its "natural" vision? Economy? Religion? Justice? ...?

I do not know what you mean by "compressed," nor do I understand "natural vision"

I am afraid that in your definition,

An ethnic group is a group of people who identifiy with one another, or are so identified by others, on the basis of either presumed cultural or biological similarities, or both

we miss a basic scholar distinction between ethnology and anthropology: ethnology necessarily considers humanist themes such as history or culture, as fundamental carachters of the study, while anthropology doesn't.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. Anthropology considers biological, environmental, historical and cultural factors.

Still, it is argued (I hope I can add names, one day) that race is the biological platform above described.

You need to read the article on race, friend.

This platform, when alone, when not linked to eventual social, historical or cultural elements, is the object of antropology.

no, not at all, not by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe you need to read the article on anthropology.Slrubenstein

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Maybe my English is not fluent enough to let me express correctly. I therefore deeply thank you for allowing me an attempt of explaination. Unfortunately, my vocabulary too, recently went "wet" with my bibliotheque, so I have to ask for readers' patience as I only can use my memory, which is as much efficient as an aged man's one can be...

I need to start from the end of your reply. I had little time and little sources available to check now (I read Wiki articles), but perhaps I found something that could - I hope - explain our "distances". And it is something about... naming, or classification, or science. Or about a cultural bias of mine.

In our academical system, in fact, anthropology and ethnology were once classified (let's say, up to the 1960s, when I first met these matters) this way (loose translation from a reputed UTET encyclopedic dictionary - please forgive my eventual mistakes):

• Anthropology: biological science which studies morphological, physiological, patological carachters of all the Peoples on the Earth, either estinct or existing ones, their division in [human] races (the belonging to each being established on the basis of somatic criteria), as well as their relationships with other animal species. (...)
• Ethnology: historical science which studies the current human culture, with particular regard to peoples without literature (= peoples with only oral communication forms). (...)

In the rest of the two articles, I also found what - you'll have already noticed - makes the difference: Anglo-American classification puts anthropology (if I correctly understood) at the center of the group of disciplines that study peoples (perhaps as later indicated by Lévi-Strauss), and includes what above indicated as the ethnology's field. I also read that Italy and Germany followed the above mentioned classification, as defined by French scientists.

Moreover, I took an on-line tour of current Italian university courses, and I found that, here too, the old classification has been quite generally re-modeled, following the Anglo-American scheme. So we now have a "cultural anthropology" which seems (at a first sight) having replaced the old ethnology, which now is in turn more focused on those topics (like museal activity) which once were object of the ethnography. At the same time, what we once simply called "anthropology" is now "physical anthropology" (biological and genetical), and doesn't seem to be object of similar consideration. But I realise that there is a certain confusion, indeed, and the programs of the courses are extremely different too, among each other. The Web is not a scientific source, but I have seen that all these new definitions (Italian websites) are more or less no earlier than of the 1980s.

When I was studying law, many years ago, I directly met criminal anthropology, which was a (already discussed) discipline which studied (or was perhaps looking for) a sort of genetic, racial, and even physiognomic cause for criminality; these theories had a certain success in the 19th century (Niceforo, Lombroso), especially those about physiognomic elements (ugly people, I would summarize, would tendencially be criminals). In modern times, these theories are quite generally considered obsolete, also because the causes of crime are now described by more solid arguments. And even the few remnant elements are now attributed to ethnological fields (in the quoted sense), if appropriate. It is because of these discipline that the first time I was in Sardinia (an island in which the average racial somatic element was surprisingly coincident with Lombroso's typical criminal description), realising that much of theose theories were somehow visionary, I developed instead my long-lasting interests for the local culture and history, for their language, heritage, traditions. But I always had in mind that anthropology and ethnology respectively were what in the reported descriptions. And I felt I was somehow fascinated by ethnology, at least about Sardinians, that - BTW - I do believe are an ethnic group.

So, I hope this can explain the difference between our two positions. On my side, I'm very sorry for my partial vision (but I'm also very glad that the discussion brought me to enlarge it a little :-) and I would be honoured if you would kindly let me translate again my points with a more comprehensible terminology.

About the dubbed definition, I was trying to say that we needed to distinctly describe what an "ethnic group" is, and not to use a definition that could be similarly copied in other articles like ethnicity: if we only say that an ethnic group is made of people who share an ethnicity, we don't take into account that this is currently a political issue in many countries (if not in most). It is now important also because many countries are forced to reflect upon these presences, and this locally (but frequently) implies social feelings which have to be translated into political and legal acts, sometimes with international accessory decisions. You seem to agree that an ethnic group is minoritarian by definition, so it is naturally opposed (when conflicting) to a state-like entity. If possible, I would also add which interest are involved. In a word, I wouldn't refer to anthropology only.

About names, if you agree that the topic is potentially more political than other, we'd have to quote political leaders more often than scientists. More politics, I'm afraid, than scholarly research and debate. I am not against quoting politicians, really, but I believe that it could be better to avoid it. If - let's suppose - I name Mr. Arafat (just to make a name), and I say (this is only an unverified simple example): Mr. Arafat, in an official speech at the UNO, said that every people has the right to its territory, which he could have really said, even if perhaps inside a more specific and wide argument, I cannot later add: Corsican leader Mr. Soandso said the same, or Kurd leader Mr. Whoknowswho claims for the same objectives, even if effectively they said exactly the same. This would in fact create a sort of similarity that would be too generic to be attributed to single names, yet it is indeed a common element in those realities. And we could also risk to istinctively "paint" the citation with Arafat's (or any other leader's) colours, as if all the mentioned conflicts were connected by some undecipherable relationship. What they really share is instead the concept that is inside the assertions, and this is what I would include in the article. Couldn't we just quote this, or better: couldn't we just summarize this, avoiding to enter into endless descriptions, as you yourself said?

This is also about MLK's dream: I made that example only to underline that the same concepts, when extracted from their original context, can still be used by other people in other contexts. I wouldn't swear that each Chinese in Italy would repeat that sentence having in his mind the American racial conflict; yet, he would repeat it with completeness of sense, he would really have that same dream. So: MLK's sentence would be perfectly suitable to describe their condition too, and as such it was useful even if anonymous. But, as the sentence's author was clearly identifiable, you answered me talking about him... ;-) What if I had summarized the concepts in the - anonymous - sentence: Some positions envision an ideal society in which each man should be evaluated by his own character and not judged by racial elements?

Now, we are a tolerant country indeed, so the problem is really not so crucial here, I made this hypothetical example in order to avoid eventually offending anyone else. BTW, I obviously know that China is in Asia, but Chinese people are (I believe) the perhaps most distinguished ethnic group inside our territory and this caused me... an instinctive specification.

I don't believe we need here to make the history of each conflict, of each group, of each leader, of each position. When you say that it would take us thousands of pages, and years, I completely agree, of course. This is why I'd vote for synthesis, a necessary resource for us on this topic. Let's sort out the essential concepts and we will have an already complete article (there could be a lot to write, indeed, even if writing only a line per position), far from being at risk of ideological complications. This, besides, is quite a real-time topic, and it could cause politically influenced edit-wars.

Still, we could properly indicate that in some cases there are positions which propose something, and other positions which reply something else. Wouldn't we be educating people about these debates, just the same?

My list of questions obviously wasn't a form, even if, if this can help, we could also eventually collect arguments this way. But however it is not a poll. It was perhaps a list of starting points, if you agree that these can be developed in the perspective of a complete article.

My impression is that you believe that nothing can be concretely obtained because there is no consensus, arguments are potentially endless, there would be too much to work on. But there are many other articles, on similarly complicated topics, which have already been developed in Wikipedia. Maybe little by little, maybe after long debates, but there they are. I do believe we can do it here too, and I also hope that we can ask for your help :-) --G

Added paragraph on ethnic groups in Mexico

I hope this paragraph clarifies the concept of "ethnic group" a bit more.

--Lupitaº 21:15, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Big huge line o'code...

Is this a quote, or can it be removed? It's really rather irritating...