Talk:Edgardo Mortara
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Anthony Hopkins
Anthony Hopkins was to appear in the role of the pope in a movie about this case. Some web sites suggest it may have been cancelled. What's going on? Michael Hardy 23:38, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- ummm, Elian Gonzalez stole the show and is now old hat? :) 204.52.215.107 13:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Mortara's date of birth
I wonder about the assertion that 1852 was his date of birth. In June of 1858 he was kidnapped at the age of six, according to Kertzer's book. If his seventh birthday were later that same calendar year, then that and Kertzer's assertion would both be consistent with his having been born in 1851. I seem to recall having read this -- I check on it some time soon, I hope. Michael Hardy 00:25, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Kertzer's book says he was 19 years old when Garibaldi's forces took Rome in 1870, and that he was 23 years old when he was ordained in 1874, and also that he was six years old when he was abducted in June 1858. That implies that he was born later than that date in June 1851 but not later than the end of 1851. "Six years old in June 1858" does not imply he was born in 1852, if, as is conventional, we take "six years old" to mean that his sixth birthday has arrived and his seventh birthday has not. Michael Hardy 21:10, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
... and one of the external links quotes Edgardo Mortara as saying that he was born on August 27th, 1851. Michael Hardy 01:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Baptism
I removed the reference to jews a ssecond class citizens.
The Church has always held baptism to signify a person is a christian, and does not require baptism by a priest. And it is not illogical to require a christian to be brought up by a christian -- in the same way that the child of a Jewish mother would be jewish because the mother was responsible for the upbringing of the child.
The references in the article seem NPOV. Excesively anti-catholic. the late 1840s were a time of political upheaval in Europe and all governments reacted including the Papal States, which was probably the most reactionary to start with.
Recognition that Roman government was one of the most extreme in Europe and not unique would help balance. garryq 23:42, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have rewritten the paragraph. I agree that "second-class citizens" was not a very helpful phrase, since no-one had the rights of "citizens" in the Papal States. But it is a simple fact that the 19th century Church was anti-Semitic in doctrine and practice, and that the child baptism rule applied and was intended to apply to Jews - there were no other religious minorities in the Papal States. It is not "anti-Catholic" to say these things. The Church itself has acknowledged and apologised for its history of anti-Semitism - though not so far in this case. Adam 04:20, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To baptise and then kidnap a child to change its religion against the wishes of its parents is undoubtedly wrong - I really despair at the 1st para of Garryq's contribution above - and it's hardly anti-catholic to say so. The involvement of the Pope would seem to indicate this was not purely an act by the civil authorities.
Exile 21:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Quotations sources
May I ask for more or less specific sources for Pius IX quotations? Not that I distrust their truth, just to be able to read them. Thanks in advance. Pfortuny 09:38, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Italian antisemitism
Should it be mentioned that antisemitism was to be remarkablily lower in unified Italy than in other European countries?
- If that's a fact, it could be quite appropriate for this article. Michael Hardy 21:45, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I see a problem in properly assessing the "remarkably lower" -unless it is extraordinarily clear, which I may doubt-. Pfortuny 07:18, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I read something to that tune in Farewell Espaņa, a book on Sephardi history. The author compared the antisemitism in Papal States (with the Roman Ghetto and a child whose name I forgot but probably Mortara) with the later situation of Jews in unified Italy, where they were ordinary citizens, but there weren't enormous fortunes as in France, Germany or Britain, hence Christian Italians (in general) didn't felt envy for them.
- One of David Kertzer's books The Popes Against the Jews, points out that in other predominantly Catholic countries, nationalist movements were pro-Catholic and anti-Semitic, but in Italy, the nationalist movement was against the church, because the church maintained the Papal States and after their overthrow by the Italian kingdom, tried to re-establish them. Michael Hardy 22:49, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Elian Gonzalez
This spectacle reminds me of the Elian Gonzalez dispute a few years back. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
...Was a six-year-old Jewish boy...
Was he six years old his entire life?
