Talk:Early Cyrillic alphabet
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The SHA is missing; what is here called OT should be called omega. OT is the the name for the omega with the tripodial t over it.
Otherwise, excellent image.
19:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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Table of letters
I've created a table and images to replace Djinn112's excellent image. I figure this one will be easier to edit. I've tried to incorporate the info from the original image, and also from this image I found in the Ukrainian Wikipedia:
Does everything show up correctly? Are all the diacritics there? Do the nasalization symbols in the IPA for the Yuses appear in your browser? (They don't on my Mac with Verdana specified in the stylesheet, but I think they're specified correctly.)
Since old manuscripts didn't differentiate letter case, I haven't included upper-/lower-case letters in the images, but I did include them in the Unicode column. I used lower-case Kirillica Nova font for the images, since it was simple, included most of the characters, and captured the look of manuscripts. I've left out the "er" near the end, which I think is a differently-drawn Hard Sign. Is the last glyph really a separate letter, or just an ornamental Omega? I think some of the transliterations may need a bit of adjustment. Can anyone supply IPA for the letters' names?
—Michael Z. 20:49, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
Table
Table and discussion archived to Talk:Early Cyrillic alphabet/Alphabet table
Accents and punctuation in Unicode
Here they are. Most don't work in any of my web browsers. Needs some work, and more pictures. Have to take the plunge and move that table over soon.
- I think we should take the plunge and move the table over stat. I'll leave it for the moment, given there's more of your work there than mine, but I'm happy to do it myself, if you prefer?
Several diacritics, adopted from Polytonic Greek orthography, were also used [these may not appear correctly in all web browsers]:
- Template:Polytonic oksia, indicating a stressed syllable (Unicode
U+1FFD), similar to an acute accent - Template:Polytonic varia, indicating stress on the last syllable (
U+1FEF), similar to a grave accent - Template:Polytonic kamora, indicating palatalization (
U+0484), similar to an inverted breve - Template:Polytonic dasy pneuma, rough breathing mark (
U+0485) - Template:Polytonic zvatel'tse, or psilon pneuma, soft breathing mark (
U+0486) - Template:Polytonic titlo, indicating abbreviations, or letters used as numerals (
U+0483) - Template:Polytonic trema, diaeresis (
U+0308) - Template:Polytonic Combined zvatel'tse and oksia is called iso.
- Template:Polytonic Combined zvatel'tse and varia is called apostrof.
Punctuation marks:
- Template:Polytonic comma
- Template:Polytonic full stop
- Template:Polytonic Armenian full stop (
U+0589), resembling a colon - Template:Polytonic Greek question mark (
U+037E), similar to a semicolon - Template:Polytonic ano teleia (
U+0387), a middle dot used as a word separator - Template:Polytonic exclamation mark
Discussion on punctuation and diacritics
- I think this section's really good, except that it also needs images and a guide to the names (in Russian and Greek), I'd guess, as well as an explanation of how they're used, if that's not obvious.
- I've removed the links to oxia (or oksia) and varia, as the pages don't exist (Varia is about a character of that name in Xena: Warrior Princess and has a disambig header pointing to grave accent for Polytonic Greek orthography).
- Working for me (in IE6 on WinXP, see screengrab) are:
- All the punctuation and trema — work properly
- Oksia and varia — all characters display correctly, but without superimposition
- Kamora, dasy pneuma, psilon pneuma, titlo, iso and apostrof — all appear with box characters
— OwenBlacker 14:39, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
About as good as the results in Safari/Mac:
- punctuation work properly
- Trema appears as a box character
- other diacritics display correctly, but without superimposition
In all my fonts that have them, the pneuma appear as tiny half-Н glyphs. Does Unicode have a way to make non-combining accents combine? —Michael Z. 2005-02-1 16:51 Z
- I've put the table (and the punctuation/diacritics) into the article and archived the earlier discussion from here, as you can see.
- Just noticed the Unicode combining accents (though they don't combine for me either):
- 'COMBINING CYRILLIC PALATALIZATION' (U+0484) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0484/index.htm) ҄ —а҄
- 'COMBINING CYRILLIC DASIA PNEUMATA' (U+0485) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0485/index.htm) ҅ —а҅
- 'COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA' (U+0486) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0486/index.htm) ҆ —а҆
- Also there are:
- 'CYRILLIC THOUSANDS SIGN' (U+0482) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0482/index.htm) ҂
- 'COMBINING CYRILLIC HUNDRED THOUSANDS SIGN' (U+0488) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0488/index.htm) ҈ —а҈
- 'COMBINING CYRILLIC MILLIONS SIGN' (U+0489) (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0489/index.htm) ҉ —а҉
- Thought you might be interested ;o)
Refining the table
I've linked the Unicode letters to the individual letter articles. Dzherv is broken, because it's really a transliterated Glagolitic letter; Tshe and Dje are related glyphs, but not the same letter, methinks. —Michael Z. 2005-02-4 05:38 Z
Also corrected the IPA. Used the ligature (U+02A6) for [ts], and corrected the position of the double combining inverted breve (U+0361) for [ks] and [ps]. Yes, it looks wrong in Arial Unicode MS -- that font renders it incorrectly, too far to the left. But it looks right in every other font that has the character (try Lucida Grande, Code2000, Gentium, or TITUS Cyberbit). —Michael Z. 2005-02-4 06:30 Z
- Foolishly, I've just edited the article without reading your comments here. I've linked Dzherv to Che, as I think it makes more sense to link it to an existing article that (at some point) might contain detail about the character's history, rather than to a non-existant article. In retrospect, I should prolly have created a redirect with possibilities; feel free to revert and do so. — OwenBlacker 19:39, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)