Talk:Dvorak Simplified Keyboard

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Contents

1 Shortcuts 2 Pronunciation 3 Poll: which keyboard makes more sense?? 4 i wish there were just more user awareness 5 Is typing digraphs with adjacent fingers difficult? 6 Copyvio 7 NPOV inconsistency? 8 Vi is a non-issue 9 A recent study about the efficiency of Dvorak 10 Inboard stroke flow? 11 One hand layout tutorials 12 single-handed dvorak 13 correctness of single handed dvorak layout 14 how optimized is dvorak anyway 15 Origin of Idea

Shortcuts

I can personally attest the difficulties in using the Dvorak layout regarding keyboard shortcuts. I would also like to point out, however, that on the Macintosh (OS X at least) it automatically reverts to QWERTY when the modifier keys are pressed. IMO it's this level of attention to user friendiness that makes Apple far ahead of the competitors.

I don't have any trouble using keyboard shortcuts with Dvorak any moreso than in qwerty. mnemonic 05:47, 2004 Jun 20 (UTC)

So you're saying that Mac OS is user-friendly because it suddenly reverts the keyboard layout you set up without any warning? Hmmm. — flamingspinach | (talk) 06:29, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Mac OS X has two Dvorak layouts, one which reverts to QWERTY when meta keys are pressed, and one that does not. Windows has no such option by default (maybe someone has made a layout for download?).

Pronunciation

How do you prounounce Dvorak? August_Dvorak's article says /dvOr{k/, is that similar to duh-vor-ack? The article should probably say.

BTW, I'm typing this (very slowly) in Dvorak right now. w00t!

The first syllable is pronounced like "door" with a v after the d. The "dvor" is one syllable. The second syllable is pronounced "ack".

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Poll: which keyboard makes more sense??

Suppose there were a poll for voting for which keyboard is more logical, QWERTY or DVORAK. Approximately what percentage would vote for QWERTY?? (Assume the voters are United States citizens 16+ years of age.) 66.245.102.102 00:57, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Isn't the point of taking a poll to find out something that you don't know and cannot predict? See Slashdot poll (http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=393&aid=-1) and MacPolls (http://www.macpolls.com/?poll_id=99)? – Lee J Haywood 07:42, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

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i wish there were just more user awareness

I think there would be many willing to switch if they just knew what the heck Dvorak is, and the support behind it. mnemonic

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Is typing digraphs with adjacent fingers difficult?

Maybe it was true when typewriters were all-mechanical, and typist had to hit the keys violently. But now, with near-zero force applied to the keys, it's much easier to type with adjacent fingers, and with adjacent keys, than with distant keys. At least for me. And, at least for me, its much easier to type when I don't alternate hands frequently. It's possibly due to nerves' length that fingers of one hand are easier to synchronize. Grzes 10:00, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Copyvio

Are those pics copyvio? They're from Mac's Keyboard Viewer. LUDRAMAN | T 11:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) (PS Im a week into learning Dvorak it rocks but im still so slow!)

Always a good question. It's not really one that any reader/editor of this page is likely to be able to answer, though. You should raise the question by clicking through the picture itself and looking at the references and comments that were uploaded when the original picture was loaded. If you are not satisfied, put your question on the image's discussion page. You can also use the Wikipedia:Copyright problems page. Good luck with Dvorak. Rossami 14:36, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My guess is that they're mechanically produced from the keyboard data and therefore unlikely to be protectable, as an element of creativity is necessary for coprightability. Possibly the widget graphics might be copyrightable, but if that's the case, a bunch of screenshot data is also in violation. Assuming they're copyrightable, this (and the screenshots) probably fall under fair use. IANAL AlphaEtaPi 08:34, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

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NPOV inconsistency?

"Dvorak conducted several studies in the late 1940s which showed that QWERTY typists could be retrained to the Dvorak keyboard, reached their original speed within 2-3 months and gained up to an additional 30% as they gained further proficiency (as measured in words per minute). Subsequent researchers have been unable to repeat his results, usually showing that there was little difference in efficiency between QWERTY and Dvorak layouts. The methodologies of the various studies remain points of intense controversy."

Accoding to this paragraph, which appears late in the article, the Dvorak layout is not clearly, obviously, and demonstrably better and faster than the QWERTY layout. There is, in fact, only one study that indicates this, and there are (according to this paragraph) several which indicate approximately equal efficiency.

Is this accurate? If so, why is it listed under "Resistance to change" (which seems to imply that the researches are only saying this because they are resisting change)? It seems to me that "Even though many feel that the principles on which the Dvorak keyboard is based make it superior to the older QWERTY" is also a bit too strong. (It doesn't say who the "many" are. Are they the Dvorak users? How many are they, that is, 100,000 compared to how many QWERTY users? According to the paragraph I quoted above, most researchers have not been able to corroborate this claim.)

I realize that this is, of course, a controversial question; I don't want to decide on an answer, just to more toward an NPOV presentation of the facts.[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Without checking the article, it looks like that paragraph is parrotting what the Reason article stated. That article has been proved to be full of fallacies and just plain lies. Dvorak is easier and simpler to use for 99% of people (once they get used to the layout). I won't delete the paragraph since I don't know the source, but all the literature I've come across (except for the said article) states that the Dvorak layout is easier than QWERTY. I know several people who use it: all swear by it. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:16, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

I think perhaps the paragraph should be deleted. If it's unsubstantiated and quite possibly false, it could easily be misleading to people relying on the article for informational content. Most people won't read the history page to realize the information is dubious. I will admit to having a bias. My WPM went from 30 to 60 after learning Dvorak, but that was partly from training myself to type without looking at the keyboard (since it was still labeled for QWERTY). AlphaEtaPi 05:36, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Okay, I deleted it. If you want to restore, please discuss here first. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:30, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I do want to restore the paragraph. The existance of the studies on both sides of the debate are verified (and, in fact, are cited in some of the links at the bottom of the page). The arguments and counter-arguments about the appropriateness of the methodologies used and/or the motivations for the studies are also well documented and verifiable. I believe the text of that paragraph presented the dispute in a reasonably fair and NPOV manner. The article is poorer without a discussion of the dispute. Frecklefoot's assertion that "Dvorak is easier and simpler to use for 99% of people" is not supported by any academic study that I know of. (By the way, I think he's right. I just don't think anyone's proven it yet.)

I have no opinion on the original question of whether the paragraph's inclusion under the heading "Resistance to change" created an appearance of bias. Rossami 17:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed it because I suspected it came from the Reason article, the validity of which has be hotly disputed and I've read several articles that disprove many of the article's claims. The authors' methology was also questioned. The authors of that article clearly had a bias when they wrote the article: they wanted to discredit the Dvorak layout. The fact that Reason even published such drivel is sad.

Those articles (I think there are actually two) were by the same authors and share the same bias. They are the only source of any controversy that I know of. Two feeb's bias does not a controversy make (IMHO). No one but these two authors have disputed the superority of the Dvorak layout. I don't want to add weight to their argument by including their disproven assertions in an article. The article is better without such conspiracy theory, IMHO. Even the US government agrees it is superior, but change is just hard.

I would agree to adding it back in with a disclaimer, stating that numerous people have disputed the authors claims and pointed out falsehoods in their article. If one can be added in a NPOV manner, go for it. Peace. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:38, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

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Vi is a non-issue

Because Vi and clones thereof provide a way to map keys, I don't see the issue. You can simply add something like the following to your ~/.exrc or whatever to preserve using the right-side home keys:

map t j
map n k
map s l --216.12.106.14

If you feel the change to the article should be made, go for it. Be bold! :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:04, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

I disagree that it's a non-issue. You have to:

• know that you can remap these keys
• know (or look up) how to do it
• edit the config file to remap the keys
• remap the keys you displaced (like 'n' and 's')
• repeat for every system you use

And if you forget just one system (vi is popular on shell accounts, so this isn't that uncommon), your keymappings are even *more* confusing than if you'd just used h/j/k/l in the funny positions. (I speak from experience ... ugh.)

The same force that keeps most people from switching to Dvorak, keeps people from editing their vi configuration files. Joel (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html) puts it this way:

It's true that the first time they realized you could completely remap the keyboard in Word, they changed everything around to be more to their liking, but as soon as they upgraded to Windows 95 those settings got lost, and they weren't the same at work, and eventually they just stopped reconfiguring things. I've asked a lot of my "power user" friends about this; hardly any of them do any customization other than the bare minimum necessary to make their system behave reasonably.

I do, however, fully support adding a note to the article that reconfiguring vi is possible, and how to do it. I just can't see how this makes it a non-issue; the need for such a note is evidence that it *is* an issue. --4.16.250.19

Good point. Go ahead and make the change the way you noted above. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:43, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

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A recent study about the efficiency of Dvorak

I just happened to stumble upon this: http://atri.misericordia.edu/Papers/Dvorak.php . I can't find the date - maybe I'm just being daft - but this can't be more than three years old because of some of the references. Also I don't know a shit about the American academic system beyond that Ivy League is considered reliable, so I can't really say whether this College Misericordia has any authority. And sorry if this already is yesterday's news.

I am a QWERTY user who occasionally considers switching to Dvorak. My main hindrance has been the fact that I spend a lot of time typing on keyboards other than that of my home computer. I hear that mastering two keymaps is possible, though.

-- Matti Nuortio, Oulu, Finland

I re-learnt touch-typing on Dvorak, but not two-finger typing. Now when I look at the keyboard I immediately switch to QWERTY (which can be a problem if I glance at the keys accidentally) and immediately go back to Dvorak when I look away. The main problem is with other people, especially at work. They expect to be able to simply start typing on your keyboard but find themselves typing gibberish. It is a lot of effort to train them to hit the hot-key to switch key-maps before typing. MS Windows is particularly useless because it only switches for the current application rather than the whole system.  – Lee J Haywood 10:04, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Mr. Haywood about having your fingers switch "automatically", and sometimes unexpectedly, producing a small burst of gibberish. But I'd recommend going ahead with learning Dvorak. I did it on a lark about 25 years ago and have never regretted it (although I well remember an initial couple of weeks of having sore hands from consciously overriding my QWERTY reflexes). I also spend a lot of time typing on QWERTY keyboards and haven't had a problem keeping both sets of reflexes. One side benefit of spending a couple weeks focused on my typing skills is that I improved my QWERTY speed as well. The benefit of Dvorak to me, though, is not speed but comfort: I simply find it a lot less tiring.  – Shal Farley 2005-01-09

Inboard stroke flow?

I'm somewhat confused by this passage:

Stroking should generally move from the edges of the board to the center (as an example, rap your fingers on a table and see which is easier: going from pinkie finger to index or index to pinkie). This motion on a keyboard is called inboard stroke flow.

It implies to me that it's easier to rap your fingers from pinkie to index, but I tend to "jam up" when I do that, and going from the index to the pinkie flows more naturally. I'm also only able to do that on my right hand; I "jam up" either way when I do it on my left. Am I just a freak of nature, or is that passage wrong? Gus 02:25, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

I don't know if you're a freak, but I also find it easier to go from index to pinkie. Maybe the people he tested were freaks? I don't jam up, however, like you report. Perhaps someone should investigate this. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:50, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

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One hand layout tutorials

Does anybody know of any left handed Dvorak tutorials? I already know standard dvorak (only layout I ever learned) and I want to experiment with the left handed layout so I can use the mouse and type at the same time, or eat a sandwich and type simultaneously.

single-handed dvorak

"The single-handed typing appeared in two James Bond movies: Tomorrow Never Dies by an information age tycoon, and GoldenEye by a Russian computer cracker." ok, was this just a sighting of a character using one hand to type or did the movies actually show the single-handed dvorak layouts?

i think it's just single handed typing. Though, the Russian hacker case might have potential to freeze frame and check. The info tycoon case might be some single-handed input system, though it's been a while i watched them. Xah Lee 22:13, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)

correctness of single handed dvorak layout

I'm pretty sure that the images for left and right-handed dvorak layouts are completely wrong. This webpage shows the correct layouts: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/alphaSingle-c.html. This can be confirmed by switching the layout on your computer.

folks, the single handed dvorak layout images i put there seems wrong. At least, several sites shows a different layout for both left and right hand. The image i obtained is from DvorakInternational.org/com around 2001. I don't know what's the deal now. Xah Lee 19:00, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

aside from which one being THE standard layout for a moment... i did some comparison, and noticed the one in wiki are actually not that different. The difference is that one has the number pad in 3 columns, while the Microsoft one has 2. Apparently, the one with 3 columns is more convient. (and the whole alpha group are closer to return) So, i think it is a improved version in some way. Xah Lee 00:52, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)

how optimized is dvorak anyway

Shouldn't i be on the home key, since it is a lot more frequent than u?

Yes. 141.213.129.40 22:08, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe. We can't know for sure without some actual hard data about letter frequency. One could probably find statistics like that online, but I don't care enough to do so. ✈ James C. 23:49, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

This Dvorak vs QWERTY tool (http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/) will tell you the most frequent letters. For any reasonably large body of text, i is at least two times more frequent than u. I often find myself resting the index on i rather than u for this very reason. I was considering swithching them myself but using Dvorak in a QWERTY world is hard enough, it would be an awful idea to use a custom Dvorak.

Origin of Idea

In Jared Diamonds article The Curse of QWERTY (http://www.geocities.com/malibu_malv/curse_qwerty.html) he says that Dvoraks brother in law got the idea from a seminar by the Gilbreths on efficiency in repetitive movementa, I think this is worth noting but no sure where to place it in the article?

nevermind, i guess you made a typo using qwerty. ✈ James C. 20:15, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)