Talk:Domestication
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Raptors have been both caught in the wild and raised from birth to hunt with and for humans; dogs are also used to flush game for the birds. This goes back thousands of years.
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Dogs Domesticated in Middle East?
While Middle East is technically Asia, I don't believe that's what researchers referred in a recent study that found Asian dogs such as Chow Chow to be closest genetically to ancient wolves.
http://www.azcentral.com/families/articles/0520DOGSLIFE-ON.html
Shouldn't it be Asia, not Middle East? While the Middle East is when the first civilizations started, the domestication of dogs happened long before that.
On proposed merger with domesticated animal
Domestication is a distinct subject. This article contains lots that might belong (also?) at domesticated animal, but the examples serve to illuminate the question of demestication, so at least some of this should stay here.
I'm opposed to the proposed merger on these grounds. Admustments are probably indicated, however.
Here is my take. There is a separate List of domesticated animals that I plan to merged Domesticated animals with in accordance with the wikipedia naming conventions for lists. The List of domesticated plants and List of domesticated animals are useful and should be maintained separately from this article on domestication, although they should all contain links to each other.--Jjhake 21:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
six critera. but maybe 7?
The six criteria appear to be seven in number. I don't have a copy of the book, could someone who does fix either the number or the list? Bryan
- I fixed the list. The "moderate size" seems to have been added afterwards, and does not match elephants. --FvdP
Cats? Domesticated?
The degree of domestication of the cat is "questionable, because it does not really recognise a human as its chief"? This is in contrast, say, to the rabbit and the guinea pig??? -- Someone else 20:37 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
- I guess the main reason is that the cat comes from Africa ;-) --FvdP 20:46 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
- Must be. Actually, I think those who claim the cat is not domestic might be overimpressed by the fact that the cat can survive on its own quite nicely, feeling that domestic animals somehow ought to be obligately dependent on humans. But now I've been forced to do it: haul out Guns, Germs, and Steel: cats are indexed on pages 158, 173, 207, and 389. on p. 158: "...cats were domesticated in North Africa and Southwest Asia to hunt rodent pests." (The page has lots of small animals designated as domesticated (honeybee, silkworm moth, chinchilla), but Jared says the big animals were more important (not more domesticated). p. 173: "Cats and ferrets are the sole territorial mammal species that were domesticated, because our motive for doing so was not to herd them in large groups riased for food but to keep them as solitary hunters or pets." p. 207 relates to diseases that can be spread by "our pets and domestic animals". p. 389: "Wild ancestors of...house cats were native to North Africa but also to Southwest Asia, so we can't yet be certain where they were first domesticated, although the earliest dates currently known for...house cats favor Egypt." So nowhere does Diamond question the domesticity of the cat. Nor do I think there is any question that the species has been altered by its contact with man, so the offending phrase will now magically disappear (until the next person with an opinion stops by<G>). -- Someone else 21:05 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
- There were other animals introduced at the same time like the cat, eg. fox and fallow deer, so I would be extremely doubtful on claims on domestication --Yak 16:46, May 1, 2004 (UTC)
only Diamond's criteria?
Hmm. Weird indeed. The criteria listed are only "According to evolutionary anthropologist Jared Diamond...", (ie, they are not universal), yet the rest of the article judges everything by this guy's criteria. not good -- Tarquin 20:40 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
outsider taxa
On Talk:Domesticated outsider taxa i pose a queston abt my nonce term "outsider taxa", which also relates to Domestication. --Jerzy 09:33, 2003 Oct 27 (UTC)
potted plants -- domesticated?
Does anybody know what is the difference between domesticated plants mentioned here and all the nice pottery plants which are for sale and based on wild ancestors? This question arose at Dutch Wikipedia. Thanks Ellywa 11:07, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Bees and rats
Should the honey bee and the silkworm be mentioned?
Is there a term for parahuman animals (pests) like rats, city pigeons and gulls. They are not tamed but depend (at least many of them) on humans.
-- Error 00:30, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
ww 16:02, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I oppose, too; I would think that this article would deal with the process of and issues about domestication, whereas Domestic animal would identify those already domesticated and their role in various societies or cultures. Elf | Talk 03:06, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Domestication by Animals
Why are the "ant-cow" aphids raised by leaf-cutter ants not a case of domestication? There are behaviors in the ants whose sole function is meeting the needs of the aphids, and why should hard-wired genetic behavior be treated so differently from conscious intention? In fact, if that were the criterion, there is a theory that says since wolves are so unamenable to domestication, the truth must be that a human-tolerant mutation must have been selected for due to the ability of wolves expressing it to scavenge from garbage heaps that humans created with no intention of domesticating anything; that would mean the domestication process went a long ways inintentionally, but IMO no one would conclude from that that dogs aren't really domesticated. --Jerzy(t) 23:58, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
Dogs: 10000 BCE or 11000 BCE
The article says two diferent things about the beggining of dog's domestication. In one place it says they were domesticated 10000 BCE, in another place - 11000 BCE. 212.235.99.134 04:41, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Adjusted table to match info we've got in the dog article. The next place in the article mentions both ends of the range. Elf | Talk 00:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
recent editions to table
Sorry not to have included a summary with previous edits. I am new at this. All my changes were on the table of approximate dates. I added Honeybee and Silkworm, expanded the date for Cats, and adjusted the spacing of cells. I hope I have not caused any trouble. Feel free to remove Honeybee or Silkworm if not appropriate.
Jjhake 22:49, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A separate master list of all organisms being bred under human control
I am wondering if the section called “Categories of domesticated organisms” should be moved into a separate master list that would be merged with the “List of domesticated animals,” the “List of domesticated plants” and the list of “Domesticated outsider taxa.” There are so many organisms with complete lifecycles under the care and direction of humans that the list in this article is starting to look like a full taxonomical chart of all living things. It is an interesting and valuable list, but I think that it should all be consolidated into one list that is organized into the three main categories of animals, plants, and outsider taxa. I also think that there should be some standardized way of specifying the degree of domestication for a species or a simple explanation of why it should be included on the list. The article on domestication should contain a clear link to this master list, but I think that the article and the master list should be separate projects. What do others think? --[[User:Jjhake|Jjhake (talk)]] 21:24, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't think we need to replicate the list of living things--it is startling to click "mammals" in this article and, instead of getting a list of domesticated mammals, getting the full article on all mammals, etc. I agree that we need a better definition of what we want to list as domesticated--presumably any plant that has been brought in from the wild and hybridized a couple of times is "domesticated", which leaves us with billion and billions of plants that could be listed. And I think there's already a reasonably good list of reasonably thoroughly domesticated animals in the article. So I'm thinking get rid of this bit entirely. Elf | Talk 01:11, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, seeing no further comments, I will go ahead and plan to relocate this section (Categories of domesticated organisms). I will merge it with the lists. I think a list of domesticated organisms and their categories might still be of interest, but it should in be consolidated as a separate list. Any further thoughts?
Here is one possible system for a way of organizing the list of domesticated organisms:
A similar system could to be used for plants and the other kingdoms.
Cows in the Sahara
Recently, this link (http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/history/herlin/textsup.htm) was added to the article along with the statement that cows were first domesticated around 6000 BCE in Northern-Africa. While I don't know much about domestication, I'm sure that the link does not warrant this statement: it does not even contain the word 'cow' or 'ox'; it only speaks of 'cattle', which in African contexts easily could apply to goats or other non-cow kinds of cattle. As the link does not warrant the conclusion that it speaks about cows and cows only, it should not make the article say so. That is why I have removed it the first time and why I have moved it to Talk now. — mark ✎ 18:28, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough; I don't claim to know naything about African pastoralism, and was unaware that in this context "cow" and "cattle" aren't necessarily the same thing. I decided based on my understanding of "cattle", and that the link looks credible - hosted in a university professor's web space, apparently a supplement to a textbook - that the link could stay. But I'm happy to leave it out. Thanks, mark, for your detailed explanation. CDC (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
CHART: CHRONOLOGY OF ANCIENT WEST AFRICA, p. 43
By 6,000 BCE Evidence of domesticated 'humpless' cattle in the Saharan region. Also seed-cropping (or harvesting) of grains. [posted by Roylee]
- Still no cows. You know, there might have been, but I would just like to see a more solid and unambiguous source. — mark ✎ 20:47, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Honey bees domesticated?
Now I only dabble in beekeeping... but I was under the impression that honey bees were never truely domesticated. That's what beekeepers have told me. you can go "capture" a wild swarm, and "domesticated" bees can swarm and create colonies in the wild. Some queens have been bred for specific traits, but they can live completely independant of humans, unlike cows and other animals. I think they're more coaxed into living in convenient boxes for us than they are domesticated.