Talk:Dies Irae
From Academic Kids
'Celaeno' is a star, one of the Pleiades. Celano is the town in the Abruzzi associated with this poet. If any element were dropped, it would be the 'a'. ...as in encyclopaedia. Wetman 08:18, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I've seen it both ways, but "Celaeno" seems to me to be the more frequently used, even if it is wrong. Perhaps it's because Celaeno is the spelling H. P. Lovecraft used. AAR, both are redirected to the same page. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:34, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
| Contents |
Head-Boarding Monks
It's worth noting that the last two lines of Dies Irae are being chanted by the line of monks in "Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail" as they beat themselves in the heads with boards.
Cuncta stricte discussurus
I recently redid the translation, and I do have a question on cuncta stricte discussurus. The literal translation, to me, seems:
cuncta: nom/acc pl. n., everything/total/the sum/the whole
stricte: drawn tightly together
discussurus: future active participle. To shatter, strike down, destroy, etc.
Now, it could be that stricte has a 'strict' meaning I'm not familiar with (not that hard to imagine the link between 'bound tightly' and 'strict'), and discussurus could mean to be dealt with/finished/dismissed in a legal sense. Also, I just realized that discussurus is an active. My passive-ish translation might still best convey the sense, but I'd really like someone with more knowledge than I to investigate the usage of these terms.
- You are right about the root meaning of discutere, but in later Latin discutere often, and in some contexts usually, means "to render a judgment." It is for example the usual verb used to describe the action of a high court when it overturns the judgment of a lower court; thus the breaking-apart metaphor. FWIW, this is the source of the English word "discuss." Forensic jargon appears elsewhere in the poem --- cassus, for example, is not the ordinary word for "in vain" --- so it seems at least likely that when the Judge comes, he will be rendering final judgments rather than breaking things up. A lot depends on what the implied, unstated antecedent of cuncta is. Crimina? Peccata? Smerdis of Tlön 02:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks! That's actually quite helpful. The question now is how to translate this. Perhaps a footnote is in order? I admit I like the idea of everything brought together to be broken apart, which seems a fitting metaphor for Judgment Day's dual aspects of comprehensive collection and final destruction - a 'wrap up', as it were. That even seems to potentially fit with the more legal interpretation - everything brought together to be dismissed/overturned/finalized. How do we render this in English, however?
Poem itself should be moved...
...to the commons or wikibook
--213.33.29.214 21:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Translation
The translation is dreadful. I have seen a translation somewhere that actually preserves the rhyme - it starts (I remember very little unfortunately)
- days of wrath and terror looming
- heaven and earth to ash consuming
- david's quoth and sybills dooming
and I have seen a more modern translation that also achieves this (but not to the same meter)
- That day of wrath and grief and shame
- Shall fold the world in sheeted flame
- As David's psalm and Sibyl's songs proclaim
could someone please find an uncopyrighted translation that actually does the poem justice?
- The translation as it stood was meant to be, in essence, a crib, giving the English sense of the Latin as literally as possible. My personal favourite for an English translation is the one by Ambrose Bierce. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:16, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- When the sheep are then selected
From the goats, may I, respected
Stand among them undetected.
- Here's a link (http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/bierce.html) to the complete Bierce version. -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:12, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
