Talk:Crisis of the Third Century
From Academic Kids
I'd like to see some discussion on possible causes of the crisis. But I'm not a scholar, and most of the google hits are either mirrors of this article or class syllabus.
I remember some mention somewhere that slavery might be an underlying cause, but I can't find it now. Here's the rationale, as best I can remember:
From the Punic Wars to this Crisis, slavery was a major factor in the economy of the Roman world. Unlike more modern forms of slavery (antebellum American South), slaves were prisoners of war, and their offspring were born free. As the Roman Empire reached its greatest extent under Marcus Aurelius, the Pax Romana settled down. With no more major conflicts, the source of slaves dried up. Allow a few years of attrition in the existing supply, under the reign of Commidus, and BAM, Crisis of the Third Century.
Slavery also had a hand in transforming the Republic into the Empire. Before and during the Punic Wars, the Roman army consisted of levies of men, mostly farmers or estate holders, wealthy enough to afford the upkeep on their arms. Following the Punic Wars, lengthy tours of duty, on the borders of Rome's expanded sphere of influence, caused the land owning soldiers estates to go bankrupt. Their estates were bought out by even wealthier magnates, who ran large estates with the now vast number of slaves, captured in the wars.
This caused a depletion in the number of men who qualified for military service. In response, Marius reformed the army. The new army consisted of impoverished Roman citizens. These citizens had their arms, plus a salary, provided for out of the State's funds. In addition, they were given a retirement package in the form of land grants, given out of newly conquered territories. These new soldiers were dependent on victorious generals for these land grants. Because of this, generals, such as Julius Caesar, became even more politically powerful.
Economic power migrated away from Rome to large, slave run estates in the provinces. Again, this weakened the Republic in favor of governors responsible to the central goverment.
I've also noticed that some scholars, such as Toynbee, remark on a "depopulation" in the late Empire, which caused a vacuum which allowed the barbarians to move in and set themselves up as foederati. But I haven't heard of any famine or plague that might cause such a depopulation. It seems to me that a radical shift in the economy might cause an apparent "depopulation" - a sudden need for peasants. This would be the opposite of "overpopulation" - where a nation has a boom in the non-farming population, causing massive unemployment. crazyeddie 22:57, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- There should be books on this, but I don't know of any offhand (sometimes searching Amazon is a good way to turn up titles). I don't know if I find the reduction in available slaves plausible, because the tribes continually warred with each other, and were more than happy to make a few bucks selling their captures. One possibility to keep in mind is that life for the average Roman might have been mostly unaffected, and that the "crisis" involved just a handful of would-be rulers jockeying for position. Another thing to keep in mind is that barbarian and Roman weren't that different from each other - Roman soldiers helped themselves to food from barbarian farms, and barbarians took food from Roman farms. (Roman writers of the time weren't especially committed to NPOV. :-) ) Stan 03:35, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And that is why I'm not a historian - too much of a techie, always looking for the simple answers. crazyeddie 06:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
But, even so, what were the root causes? I mean, it looks like the Empire had been fairly stable for the last 200 years. And then 40 years of chaos. After that, it seems like the Empire was never the same. Even though it was the same size, or even smaller, it sounds like they had troubles with internal communications. There's all that business with subdividing the empire between different rulers. I'll grant you might have been just the big boys seeing who's top dog, but why did the fight go on for over 40 years? Why did the scuffle start in the first place? crazyeddie 08:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the timing is off on that theory. Marcus Aurelius died in 180. 180 to 235 is too big of a gap. crazyeddie 09:07, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I added refs to a couple recent books I found by poking around on Amazon. Should be some journal articles too, somebody with a university database account should find those. Stan 20:23, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Aurelian or Diocletian?
I have multiple sources that say this period of crisis (which goes by various names) lasted up till the time of Diocletian in 284, and did not end with Aurelian. Dioclecian makes more sense as the logical end-point since he is the start-point of the second phase of the Roman Empire. My sources include this article (http://www.roman-emperors.org/dioclet.htm) (w/ bibliography) and a class taught by William and Mary professor Philip Daileader PhD Early Medieval History.
Since this is a question of periodization there is no single "right" answer, rather, we as Wikipedians should report on what the mainstream says. I would be interested in what others think about re-working this article to bring the crisis period up to 284 ending with Dioclecian. Stbalbach 16:39, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How about doing it both ways? State that some people believe that it ended with Aurelian, that others believe it ended with Diocletian. crazyeddie 17:41, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If there was some pedigree for the Aurelian view I would try to incorporate it in some way, to give some historiography, but I have not found it. Stbalbach 19:57, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. If somebody thinks otherwise, I'm sure they'll let us know. crazyeddie 20:23, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
