Talk:Confederation

"The European Union ... is a confederation of sovereign states without a central government"

Is this true? There's the Parliament, the Court of Justice, the Commission (which has a President and executive powers), and the Central Bank. What else do you need to form a government?

No, it's not true. The EU does have a central government, but it's not a state. Defence, Currency, Foreign Affairs, etc. fall largely under the auspices of the individual state.
At the most it is the early stages of a confederation, but not a conferation propre.
It's not as clear cut as it's being presented here. If you read the french article in Wikipedia, you will see the discussion where some/most legal experts would agrue that it is in fact a state. Certainly there is a consensus that it is a sui generis entity. It has some aspects of a state, confederation/federation and an intergovernmental organization. Defence, currency and foreign affairs are now all subject to a common policy. Although, this is relatively new and obviously the member states still have wide latitude. Also by this test, one would have to say that Liechtenstein is not a state as well as many other states like Monaco, etc.




Here is an exert removed from the main article:

Traditional confederation style government has been rare in modern history, although many countries have identifed themselves as such (ie: Confederate States of America, German Confederation, Canadian Confederation, etc). The term "confederation" is thus used as a synonym of "federation." Confederations can be unstable, as was the case with the early United States in which dissatisfaction with the loose Articles of Confederation led to a much stronger central government under the Constitution of the United States.

It was replace by:

Sometimes confederation is erroneously used in the place of federation. This can be a simple slip in expression or can come from a belief that they mean the exact same thing. This can also arise from Confederations that became Federations(the German Confederacy became the Federal Republic of Germany,) or when the status of a state is ambiguous such as the United States of America, (which although has a stronger central government than when it started, still has one much weaker than that of most federations.)

I don't know who wrote it, but Canada is a federation and has never considered itself a confederation. The Confederation of Canada never existed. It has always been more properly called the Dominion of Canada, or earlier the Canadas (Upper and Lower Canada). Just because it has a Confederation Day doesn't mean it has ever called itself a confederation.

Also, Germany is known as the Federal Republic of Germany, if it has ever called itself a confederation, it was back when it was a confederation. Much like the United States of America could very well be called a federation now, but started out as a confederacy. Whether or not it is a federation or confederation is up to debate.

Before it is used as a rebutal, the only time states tried to seperate from the union, the war was described as a war on slavery, not a war to prevent succession. Although most other languages and many other cultures call it a successionary war the American public usually considers it simply for abolitionism. It could therefore be considered (and is implied by the way the union goverment described the war at the time,) as a sovereign entity attacking a de facto sovereign entity for the imposition of moral values (propre emancipation or abolitionism,) and annexation of territory.

Canada is officially called the Confederation of Canada and even though it is now a federation it was originally a confederation of British colonies. --Numerousfalx 12:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Does the Kingdom of the Netherlands count as a confederation? It doesn't meet the "many regions" criterion. But if it's not a confederation, what is it exactly? Peking Duck 20:57, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It could be called a commonwealth or an empire, similar to the British Commonwealth/Empire. Of course, I'm not sure about this. Weatherman667

I removed the part about the Confederate States of America not being a Confederation as it was deliberately organized on the basis of the Articles of Confederation. The result being their subsequent loss to the Union due to their disorganization of their war effort. --Numerousfalx 12:31, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents

Jeez.

I find this article extremely butchered. Looking at this page, the definition of what is a Confederacy is ridiculously vague. It's completely indistinguishable from a Federation. Mind trying to clean it up? - Kade 00:40, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

Was Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a confederation or federation ? Having common parliament and foreign policy but separate armies ? Wojsyl 19:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

PLC never had common foreign policy. Commonwealth is simply Commonwealth. See discussions in Talk: Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Ringaudas

Certainly I know this discussion which clearly states that there was a common foreign policy and where you're the only person who thinks there wasn't, while not having any grounds to support these claims. Wojsyl 20:01, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Smotrisj v knigu - videsj figu. Please study History of Lithuania and you find hundreds examples which show that in PLC never was common foreign policy. Antimonkey

Thank you. By the way, whay are you signing your statements with all those different names ? Wojsyl 21:04, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wojsyl own up, are you tutejszy? Its very interesting for me. From bezdany, geni or vorniany? Antimonkey

I don't know what you tried to tell me now. I simply asked what is the reason you're signing your statements with those fictious names ? Is it supposed to confuse your opponents ? Wojsyl 21:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wojsyl I ask very seriously - are you tutejszy or not? Antimonkey

I cannot answer that question beacause I don't understand what is "tutejszy". You'll need to help me here. Wojsyl 00:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think you understand very good. And I think you are tuteišas Antituteišas

So, let's get back to the original question by Wojsyl: how would you (I mean the wikipedians, not the multi-faced anon) call a state with common parliament, head of state and foreign policy yet with separate armies and offices? Halibutt 08:42, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Here's an idea- why don't we just remove any reference to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from this page, so that this silly conflict can be had elsewhere, and this poor page in very sore need of improvement can be unlocked and editted?--Conwiktion 03:37, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

to polish "administrators"

Why did you protect false polish version, but not discussed (see Talk:confederation -> above) last version? 85.206.193.33 10:21, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Please discuss your edits here and when consensus has been reached the article will be unprotected--nixie 10:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Canada

When this discussion has been resolved I'd like to note here that Canada has to be further included in the revised article. It wasn't just an event or word that can describing the amalgamation of the British North American colonies. Canada is in fact, the only surviving confederation in the world today(according to the World factbook). Though we are a parliamentary democracy, "all of Canada's sovereignty can theoretically be exercised by either the federal or provincial governments; there is nothing that one or the other government cannot do." -- Canadian law:Constitutional law (Wikibooks)

I'm not aware of another country that has states or provinces that have that much control over their jurisdictions. Quebec is an example, of the hieght of the power in which Canadian provinces can wield. Provinces don't have to participate in federal programs or in federal positions. Once again using quebec as an example, there is very little the province is involved in federally. Most of their programs are Quebec created and they have become so "independant" there have been many sovereigntist moves there.

Fully agree with you. Zivinbudas 17:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Consensus on PLC

Could the editors of this page please comment on the necessity of the inclusion of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth on this page. If we can reach concensus the page will be unprotected.--nixie 09:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was classical confederation (See this article) - it had:

  • Different governments.
  • Different armies.
  • Different treasuries.
  • Different laws.
  • Different teritories with borders.
  • Different citizenships.

It never had common capital. There were capitals of both Nations - Vilnius of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Cracow, later Warsaw of Kingdom of Poland. It had common monarch - Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland, common Parliament (Seimas, Sejm) and common currency. Zivinbudas 14:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

  1. What are different governments in a monarchy with no government? There were double offices, but not governments. The Senate was common, as was the Sejm.
  2. As with all offices, the military commanders (hetmans) were doubled. However, both the army formed in GDL and the one formed in the Crown were subject to the king and fought in the same ranks and the same battles. Territorial levy is the term you might want to check.
  3. Indeed, the treasures were kept separate.
  4. The basic set of laws and privileges was the same for both the inhabitants of GDL and the Crown.
  5. Indeed, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was divided onto several large entities we could call cantons nowadays: Lesser Poland, Greater Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia (Ukraine), Prussia and Inflants (the number varied at times, especially after Prussia and Inflants were lost).
  6. Different citizenships? How come?
  7. Different capitals? If the capital is where the monarch resides, then it had a common capital. If the capital is where the highest authority (Sejm) is located, then again, there was onl one such place (though at various times the Sejms were held in various towns: Piotrków Trybunalski, Warsaw, Grodno...

--Halibutt 14:39, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Was Prussia part of PLC?(!) After that nothing is to discuss about with you. All what you said above simply isn't truth. Zivinbudas 14:55, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Apparently you never heard of Royal Prussia... Halibutt 15:59, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

This seized by poles part of Prussia wasn't all Prussia. In Koenigsberg article polish falsificators state that Koenigsberg (Karaliaučius) was part of PLC as well. Wikipedia is full of such cheap polish falsifications. History won't change because of that rubbish. Zivinbudas 16:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes.. the rest was a Polish fief Ducal Prussia.--Witkacy 07:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the difference between federation and confederation and then between confederation and international organization might be hard to define, because evry political entity is unique with it's own laws and way of relationships between different parts of that entity. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth might be called confederation probably because of various already mentioned reasons (as for laws BTW: Lithuanian statutes were sometimes even going against Polish laws and such). I think the solution might be to explain in this article better what I said here, that the naming of federation/confederation/international organization is quite relative and such, and also instead of just giving "examples of confederations" to separate those examples into several bunches depending on level and types of confederation (what was common and what wasn't), or, perhaps even better, in the list after each example explain that shortly (e.g. Serbia and Montenegro, this and this is common between both parts, this and this is kept separate). Maybe make a table. The name "List of historical cofederations" could then be changed to "List of entities considered to be confederations" or something like that. PLC could then also be included, and in that explaination explained what was common between GDL and crown and what was separate. I think it would be a good solution DeirYassin 19:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I second that. Halibutt 21:54, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Deir Yassin, your suggestion makes sense and would so some way to cleaning up the page. I'll wait to hear from Zivinbudas to see if he agrees, and other if any other interested parties have somwthing to add, then there shouldn't be any problem unblocking the page--nixie 23:33, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The proposal of DeirYassin is logical. Zivinbudas 06:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The article has been unprotected as there seems to be a concensus to discuss the PLC in a section on this page. --nixie 07:51, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I started implementing this; expplained the relativity of term confederation, also added EU to the list section and changed name of list to "entities considered confederations". I tried to write some explaination on what is controlled by states and what by central government in EU; however of coruse that is not complete; those who knows thinsg on this subject as well as other confederations, please add similar info in brackets everywhere.DeirYassin 09:09, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

As I wrote on the PLC talk few weeks ago, it is difficult to apply modern terms like (con)federation to historical entities. We can forever argue that PLC was a confederation or federation, because in fact it had the qualities of both, so both sides are right. Thus I propose that we put PLC in a category: entity with qualities of both federation of confederation. I had already such a note to the PLC article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth&diff=14079296&oldid=14079091|added) when it was unprotected for short time recently. I hope that satisfied all involved parties, feeel free to suggest improvement to this change, of course. When I am sure Zvinbudas will not simply replace all occurances of federation with confederation, as he has done for the past 2 months, I will agree for unprotection. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:41, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
In fact, as I said previously, it is difficult to apply these terms even for current entities, such as EU; therefore I proposed this, that after every mentioning in that list in brackets it would be explained what institutions were common, and what - separate in each state and such. Because otherwise it can be argued about many entities, tight confederations might seem to be federations and loose confederations - international organizations, therefore there is now a list of entities considered confederations; explainations in brackets will help each reader to decide also because evrery (con)ffederations relations between subjects is different, there cannot be a real definition here, so examples will help. DeirYassin 12:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Its your POV. I don't change my position - PLC was classical confederation. As to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth article, I repeat again - there wasn't common capital in PLC, personal union between Lithuania and Poland existed with considerable breakes and there were many official languages in PLC (not only polish and Latin) - for example polish became an official (wrighting) language in GDL only in 1697 (replacing Old Russian Chancellary Language). Zivinbudas 10:24, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is my POV. However, you have your own POV, don't you? I will agree with your POV IF you can cite your sources since Wikipedia is no place for orginal research and statements. If you can give me the academic sources which state PLC was a confederation (and for breaks, capitals, languages, all you find arguable), I will support your version on those points. Deal? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:43, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

"Confederation" as Polish organization

The definition of "confederation" in this sense may need revision. Such an organization was not a "privilege" but an entity formed to attain a certain end. Nor was it limited to the nobility; a number of "confederations" were formed by cities. logologist 06:57, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

It has its own article, see confederatio. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:28, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Non-state confederations

A confederation is an association of sovereign states,

This is incomplete. There are plenty of private organisations that are called Confederations. One famous example is the Confederation of British Industry.

Morwen - Talk 13:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, ie Lithuanian Confederation of Industrialists. Zivinbudas 13:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Navigation

  • Art and Cultures
    • Art (https://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Art)
    • Architecture (https://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Architecture)
    • Cultures (https://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Cultures)
    • Music (https://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Music)
    • Musical Instruments (http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/List_of_musical_instruments)
  • Biographies (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Biographies)
  • Clipart (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Clipart)
  • Geography (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Geography)
    • Countries of the World (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Countries)
    • Maps (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Maps)
    • Flags (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Flags)
    • Continents (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Continents)
  • History (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/History)
    • Ancient Civilizations (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Ancient_Civilizations)
    • Industrial Revolution (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Industrial_Revolution)
    • Middle Ages (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Middle_Ages)
    • Prehistory (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Prehistory)
    • Renaissance (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Renaissance)
    • Timelines (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Timelines)
    • United States (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/United_States)
    • Wars (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Wars)
    • World History (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/History_of_the_world)
  • Human Body (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Human_Body)
  • Mathematics (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Mathematics)
  • Reference (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Reference)
  • Science (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Science)
    • Animals (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Animals)
    • Aviation (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Aviation)
    • Dinosaurs (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Dinosaurs)
    • Earth (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Earth)
    • Inventions (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Inventions)
    • Physical Science (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Physical_Science)
    • Plants (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Plants)
    • Scientists (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Scientists)
  • Social Studies (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Social_Studies)
    • Anthropology (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Anthropology)
    • Economics (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Economics)
    • Government (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Government)
    • Religion (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Religion)
    • Holidays (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Holidays)
  • Space and Astronomy
    • Solar System (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Solar_System)
    • Planets (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Planets)
  • Sports (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Sports)
  • Timelines (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Timelines)
  • Weather (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Weather)
  • US States (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/US_States)

Information

  • Home Page (http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php)
  • Contact Us (http://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Contactus)

  • Clip Art (http://classroomclipart.com)
Toolbox
Personal tools