Talk:Compatibilism and incompatibilism

From Academic Kids

Since Populus is going to remove any changes I make, I'll just complain for now. "Freedom" is the expression of will. It has nothing to do with the existence of "free will". Whatever Hume said about freedom is irrelevant to this subject. Compatibilism is actually about freedom, not about free will. Philosophers can turn anything into its opposite by application of words of five or more syllables. If the article is not fixed, I'll fix it. Fairandbalanced 00:03, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Given that compatibilism is a technical term used in philosophy as a shorthand for Hume's position, I don't think that it adds much to explain that the word ought to mean something else because you personally don't like the meaning that philosophers have assigned to some of the terms used to define it. But if you have examples (from the philosophical literature, say) of compatibilisim being used in a different sense, it would be a good idea to add that other usage here. Populus 12:45, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I repeat, "freedom" is not "free will". If Hume was talking about "freedom," which would make sense, then his comments are not relevant to the question of free will. If you are saying compatibilism really means freedom is compatible with determinism, you should clarify. Otherwise either I can clarify the situation or we can have an edit war. Fairandbalanced 21:07, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think I misunderstood your complaint. I've replaced freedom with free will in the article; I hope this is enough to make everybody happy. Populus 22:33, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I really have to pull this out:

It holds that free will refers to ultimate choice of beliefs, desires or actions. Ultimate choice is absent from the compatibilist interpretation.

The problem is that this isn't a definition of incompatibilism, which (as used by philosophers) is the claim that if the universe is deterministic, you don't have free will (in whatever sense you happen to define it). Instead, this definition appears to either be compatibilist or permit a compatibilist interpretation (it says nothing about whether determinism excludes "ultimate choice").

I'm also changing the last line to a See Also; the free will and freedom pages are better places to discuss this distinction.

If you want an encyclopedia to match your dogma, go make your own. Compatibilism is the defining of "free will" in a manner that makes it compatible with determinism. "Incompatibilism" therefore includes any definition of free will that is not compatible with determinism. And since the compatibilist definition of "free will" is so close to "freedom" that it had you confused, this is definitely the place to make the distinction. Since people without a compatibilist agenda associate free will with ultimate choice, these issues do not arise in a normal discussion of free will. And if other compatibilists and incompatibilists have other interpretations, let's see them. Next time I may be sorry that I have to remove your version. Fairandbalanced 21:35, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

We seem to be running into a conflict between defining incompatibilism, the statement that you can't have free will and determinism at the same time, and giving specific examples of incompatibilist views. How about we take your paragraph as an example of an incompatibilist position rather than a definition of incompatibilism? (See my last changes) Populus 22:27, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Better. It no longer looks like you are trying to eliminate incompatibilist views. My past experience with comptibilists is that they do not take criticism well. However, I have seen the Libertarian view presented as compatibilist, by a rather prominent Christian proponent whose identity I have forgotten. As I understand it, the Libertarian view is that determinism (or determinism and randomness) applies only to the physical world while some kind of mystical "mental" substance magically confers free will. Thus ultimate free will is compatible with physical determinism. Tortuous and ultimately ineffective. Maybe it should be a third category. Fairandbalanced 02:35, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I moved Libertarian view to a separate category. Since the "pessimistic" view is also compatible with the "ultimate choice" incompatibilist view, I put it first for clarity. My comment about Hume is from the David Hume page since his actual writing is byzantine. I figured the "illusion" comment was not necessary. Fairandbalanced 20:44, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have reworded the bit on "ultimate choice" since I wasn't sure what that meant, though I think it meant the possibility of doing otherwise... Evercat 04:12, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm removing the reference to "freedom" because any comparison beteen that and free will belongs in the free will page. It's redundant here. Fairandbalanced