Talk:Comic book

From Academic Kids

Template:Comicsproj Since there's Manga for japanese comics, how does everyone (anyone?) feel about a "Bande Dessinée" page for Franco-Belgian comics? -- Tarquin

I think we might use redirections from common spellings (sing,plur,w/wo accents) of the word, and acronyms such as BD, anyway.

(Right now, BD points to the page for Bangladesh. We could make BD a disambiguation page.)

I created a new page called Bande Dessinée as a redirect to Franco-Belgian comics, and updated BD. I also mentionned these terms in the Franco-Belgian comics page. Lvr 13:08, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've decided to point the Sandman link here at the Sandman (comic character) page, but it's a tough call, could also go to The Sandman. Anyone disagree? --AW

Contents

1 Books? 2 Not just about superheroes 3 Popularity in North America 4 Captain Marvel 5 Spoilers? 6 A complete mess ? 7 Why remove history??? 8 Manga 9 Refurbishment 10 WikiProject on Comics 11 discussion

Books?

Is this article really about comic books? As far as I can tell, the article mostly seems to be about comics, which are a sort of magazine, and not about books at all... Sometimes collections of comic strips are compiled into books, but that doesn't seem to be what this article is about. Can anyone explain...? -- Oliver P. 00:49, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Serial stories published monthly (in most cases) in sequential art format, usually in a staple bound form are called comic books, even though they resemble small magazines more than signature or perfect bound books. "comics" is a shortened form of this. Collections of daily newspaper strips can be called comic books, but this isn't common. Monthly comics collected into books are usally called "collections" or "trades". Theanthrope 16:05, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not convinced about having this term as the article title, though. In the UK at least, these serial publications are (almost?) invariably called "comics", and if they are indeed also called "comic books", it's not a term I'm familiar with, and certainly not the most common one. (The Wikipedia convention seems to be to title articles according to common usage, even if some people consider the common usage to be incorrect.) The New Oxford Dictionary of English (2001) describes comics under comic, and makes no mention of the term comic book either in the definition or etymology of comic or as a term in its own right. Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary (1972 - okay, a bit out of date) has "a comic paper" (no mention of a "comic book") as one definition of comic. Webster's Third New International Dictionary (1986) defines a comic as, among other things, "a group of cartoons or drawings arranged in a narrative sequence". It defines a comic book as "a publication in pamphlet format containing one or more comics", which would seem to imply that the term comic is the primary one. Even if it's true that the term comic comes from the term comic book, it's not something universally known, and in any case the fact that the term comic is now more common makes it irrelevant! We do have terms that were originally just abbreviations as article titles. Pop music is an example.

I would suggest having the content about comics at comic, and have a separate comic (disambiguation) page for other meanings. Alternatively, if that would give too many incorrect links, then comic should remain a disambiguation page, and I would suggest disambiguating with a word in parentheses. Comic (publication), perhaps. I think that would be less confusing than "comic book", which I think to a lot of people (including me) would conjure up images of actual books. -- Oliver P. 01:40, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

In American usage, 'comics' and 'comic books' are pretty much equivalent terms. I prefer the term 'comics' because it would seem to better cover comics in other media, such as web comics. I support the suggestion to change the article's title. How do you change a title? User:ike9898

Usually by using the "Move this page" feature. (There should be a "Move this page" link to the side of each article.) However, that doesn't work if there is already an article with the title that you want to move the page to. Some deletion and undeletion would be required in that case, for which you would need to get a sysop. But luckily I am one. :) As for your comment about other media, this article is only really about the paper things. (We have a separate article for Web comics.) Do you think that, in the US, the term comic wouldn't primarily conjure up images of the paper things? -- Oliver P. 22:05, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As I understand it, "comics" includes daily newspaper strips, whereas "comic books" does not, but is limited to the larger, longer format. Theanthrope 20:23, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

To me it makes sense to use "comics" to refer to artform as a whole, and use the terms comic book, comic strip, graphic novel and web comic to be more specific about the format. This point of view is supported by Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics".

It seems that there are some over-arching concepts that are common to all formats of comics, while each format has different particulars in it's history, usage etc. A heirarchy of concepts, with the broadest, most general concepts at the top, helps in the understanding of the big picture. Other opinions? User:ike9898

Not just about superheroes

I'd like to see further development of thought that comic books aren't just about superheroes, and aren't just for kids or childish adults (like myself). That's what I used to think too until someone showed me The Sandman and I realized it was rich a medium as the novel, and there exist genres within the medium. I've recently been exploring the crime genre, and I swear it's so much more fascinating than pure text can ever do, and that's generally because of how things are hinted at, not shown directly.

Popularity in North America

I'm interested in this statement from the article, "Today fewer comics sell in North America than at any time in their publishing history." I'm interested in confirmation that this is actually true. User:ike9898

• This isn't a scientific confirmation, but should give you some idea: [1] (http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=954) Everyone knows that the market is much smaller, but it's worth throwing in a historical comparison to flag up the scale: when X-MEN was cancelled in 1970, the final issue contained an editorial explaining that "the plain truth is that the magazine's sales don't warrant our continuing the title. We feel that the artists and writers involved can better devote their time to other projects, other characters." Two inches below, the Statement of Ownership appears, revealing that the previous issue had a total paid circulation of 199,571. Dipping below 200,000 was disastrous in those days. Today, IDENTITY CRISIS is considered a hit with sales in the region of 125,000, and FALLEN ANGEL hovers around the 10,000 mark. No wonder the publishers are more interested in licensing. -leigh 07:38, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Captain Marvel

Someone added a detail that Captain Marvel was from DC Comics. I think this isn't really correct. I pretty sure that there was even a lawsuit brought by DC against the company that published Captain Marvel, claiming copyright infringement because CM was too similar to S-man. DC lost. Now, decades later DC actually owns the rights to Captain Marvel, which they bought after the original company went out of business. The name of the original company? I can't remember. Anyone? Anyone? user:ike9898

The original DC Captain Marvel was done by Fawcett Comics. There's also (at least three) Captain Marvels in Marvel Comics. Both the Fawcett/DC CM and the Marvel CM were in one article. This article was split into its two halves (see Captain Marvel for disambiguation). The Fawcett/DC CM was put in Captain Marvel (DC Comics), with (DC Comics) used for simplicity. (See talk:List_of_Marvel_Comics_characters) UtherSRG 14:33, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't follow the link before making my comment. Oops! Thanks for changing the article back. user:ike9898

Spoilers?

Without having read every word, why is there a spoiler warning on this article? It seems extremely lame that an article about the medium of comic books should contain spoilers. IMO the article should be re-worked to remove any spoiler info. -mhr 07:17, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree. There is no information in this article that qualifies as 'spoiler' material. I'm going to remove the warning. ike9898 15:30, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

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Why I reverted a recent change....

• additions to a short list of very famous comic books, were very 'un-famous'
• contributor changed the whole list to be 'in no particular order', just be cause he didn't feel like putting his contribs in alpha order.

The article should be adapted to make it acceptable for non-Americans. Among others, please do not used the word foreign. Andries 18:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

A complete mess ?

I do agree with Andries, and other people: this article is really North-American-oriented, where comics are mostly published with a specific format and frequency. European's comic books are more graphic novels, ...
If we look at all the articles in Wikipdedia that speak about comics, they are a couple of them !

• Comics
• Comic books
• Graphic novel
• ...

We find that the same information is spread and duplicated into these articles.

I propose we merge Comics and Comic Books in order to have Comics becoming more the "style" or "tehcnique" (the paper sequential art, whether we could also discuss on this definition), and Comic books one of its flavors, more North-American oriented, like we have an article for the British comics, one for the mangas, one for continental-European one Bande dessinée (although it is not filled in, they are already several links on it), ...
Some of you would argue that nowadays all of this become very similar, i think it worth thinking further about that

Another interest would for the links with the other languages. Comics would be the corresponding English article for Bande Dessinée, Stripverhaal, Historieta, ... Now it is definitely not case.

Lvr 12:25, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

If you look at the bottom of the comics artcile, the is a hierarchical listing of comics related articles. I think this should help explain how the articles are all related in a logical way. Comics is about the medium in general, regardless of format (comic strip, graphic novel, web comic, etc.). For more specific information on comics in a particular format, you can look at one of the sub-articles. Please do not merge the articles unless a consensus is reached on this discussion page first. ike9898 13:02, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

Of course, i will not do anything unless we have a consensus on this. My meaning is the same as you. I just thing that they are information from comic books that are not relevant there (ex Tintin) and some pieces of history that should be moved from comic books to Comics. I don't exactly mean a "merge" but more a "recasting" of both articles, with clear hierarchy and links between Comic books to Comics. Lvr 13:20, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the pages are essentially correct. Comics deals with the medium in general, as ike9898 noted. Comic book deals with a particular version of the medium. There is bound to be some duplication of material among the articles, but overall I don't think it's egregious. It is certainly not "a complete mess"; I think by-and-large it's laid out well.

This is not to say the articles couldn't use some editing. Comic book is North American-oriented mainly because it's been written mainly by North Americans (for instance, I did one major rewrite, and I am not a fan of European or Japanese comic books, though I think I tried to provide a greater sense of variety than earlier revisions did). If fans of those other media would like to expand the article with perspective on non-American comics, that would be welcome. On the other hand, it's probably more appropriate for the bulk of info on Japanese comics to be in the manga article.

I don't see how Tintin is not appropriate in comic book. It seems perfectly appropriate to me.

In summary, I don't really see a problem here. Though on the other hand, you can always be bold. -mhr 16:54, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I think there should be a an article American comic book and much of the content in this article should be moved there. Then this article should be re-written with some more place for non-American comic books. Personally I read a lot of comic books but, like many others, apart from Walt Disney mostly European (French and Belgium) so I think they deserve somewhat more attention (if these comic books have been translated into English or influenced comic books in English language). There should not be separate articles on stripverhaal and bande dessinee. Those terms are simply translations of the English word comic book.Andries 18:27, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that the main point of contention here seems to be exactly whose "common definition" is being used. Lvr, coming from a British(?) perspective, sees the terms "comics" and "comic books" as being synonymous; Americans typically see the term "comics" to refer to the artform ("sequential art" if you will), regardless of the form of presentation, with "comic books" being the magazine-style format of production of comics (as distingushed from strips, graphic novels, graphic albums, digests, etc). Although merging comics with comic book might NPOV the article titles, it would also a) move away from Wikipedia's uniform use of American English (color or colour?); and b) hopelessly complicate and clutter the resultant article, in that it would be dealing with both the entire medium and with one specific (declining) form of production of that medium. Yes, the term "manga" is just another language's term for "comics"; but the phrase "Japanese comics" is used much less frequently than "manga" in reference to comic books of Japanese origin. Articles (and article titles) like "Bande dessinée", on the other hand, are pretty much what you criticize them for being, and ought to be renamed to (for example) French comics and/or merged with the relevant comics sub-article(s). Also, I agree that Tintin shouldn't be in the "comic book" article, but in the "graphic album" article (if one exists). -Sean 02:44, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Sean's definition. Both terms are not equivalent, but I don't think that everybody thinks the same: I started my post from the statement of ike9898 that In American usage, 'comics' and 'comic books' are pretty much equivalent terms, that leads me to this impression of confusion. The fact is that there is a translation problem if we want to talk of non-American "comic books", since this latter term refers to a format that is not common in the european culture.

I'm back to Andries proposition, to have an article or at least a section in this article for American comic book, where all the specific American comics issues should be treated, while the Comic Book article could be more universal and pointing to articles about French/Belgian/Japanese/Italian/British... comics books.

Lvr 09:20, 17 May 2004 (UTC) of Belgian persective (for Sean ;-) )

I support the idea of creating an American comic book page and making Comic book more general and international. I think the scope of the Comics article should stay as it is - the most general of all the articles in this group. ike9898 15:01, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

Lord, let's not call it "American Comic Book", though. History of the American Comic Book Industry would be more accurate. -mhr 05:35, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

"American comic books" is a really awkward and unintuitive name for an article on that particular format of comics. Unfortunately, there's not any better names for the format that I can think of. "Comics magazine" is the closest I can think of, except for the fact that nobody actually refers to them as such. -Sean 05:58, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

To go back to a definition of "Comic Books", do we state it is this (often)soft-coverd and frequently published format, with opposition to the graphic novel' format ? If this is so, we should make it clear in the introduction of the article.

Regarding EU (and non british) comics, there is a clear difference between those two forms. The latter (graphic novel) is the most common form and the first one (soft-covered and weekly/monthly published) is more like a magazine with short stories and where longer graphic novel are pre-published by pieces. I think that this should be explained. Thus for exemple: Tintin Magazine is not the same is the Tintin graphic novels.

By the way, ike9898 I saw your stub for American comic book: this is great. Lvr 09:11, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

There is no "uniform use of American English", and to state such is offensive. RickK

"Uniform" is a gross exaggeration, I'll admit. -Sean 05:58, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I restructured the Related Articles in a way that should reflect the content. Let's move the US Superhero-focused stuff to American Comic Books, and get somehing here that's more about the form in general. - Randolph Hoppe

Good initiative ! Lvr 14:22, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Is this entry Oh Yeah! Cartoons & Comics really relevant here ? There should not be a Some various comic books in alphabetical order section here. This entry should be listed elsewhere, like in the List of comic books, where, by the way, this title is already listed. Lvr 10:13, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I just reverted the last edit. ike9898 14:13, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

Again (i'll end up feeling somehow like a policeman): is this Follow this link to browse through works by Alex Ross and other talented comic artists relevant here ? This seems more a commercial link that a truly informative link. Lvr 15:10, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I made the big change regarding comic book the form and the US history. Also removed pamphlet as pamphlets are not bound, and comic books are. Rand

Why remove history???

I understand that someone removed the history section and put it in the American comic book article. I guess this makes sense because as written, it is very US-centric, BUT the comic book article should have a history section! I think the best way to build this section would be to restore the original history section, and start editing it to include relevent developments world-wide. Any better ideas? ike9898 19:52, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

I think Rand did a great job. However, this article lacks some form of history. I think someone should write something from scratch, based on sources found in American comic book, Franco-Belgian comics, Manga, ... while making it different of the history found in Comics! - Lvr 09:01, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mmm... well, I really like the American article now, and I think the move was appropriate. But, what kind of history would you want to put in comic book that would not be the same as comics or one of the region/culture-specific articles? I mean, as has been discussed above, the "comic book" format we're talking about here is almost exclusively an American and British thing. (The Brits don't use the term the same way, but they do have smallish periodicals, which Europe and Asia generally don't.) I'm thinking that comic book should become a pretty minimal article that mostly just explains the confusing and regional aspects of that term, and links to the other articles. ←Hob 16:09, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)

Manga

Why should we include Manga on this page? Japan does hardly even have traditional "comic books".

Who said that ??? To which "tradition" do you refer ? Lvr 09:18, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Refurbishment

Anyone thought of doing a section of comic repair techniques, such as are used to repair especially valuable comics? Just an idea; I don't know enough to do it myself, but would like to read some info on it. I hear they can replace rusty staples, take out stains using certain chemicals, even replace some of the covers and artwork (but there are limits to this, of course). Usually only economic for really valuable ones. I saw a repaired Fantastic Four #1 and it looked crappy, but then again I also saw a restored Avengers #1 and it looked really nice and was really well done. --DanielCD 16:17, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject on Comics

Hello, everyone. I've just created a project called WikiProject on Comics in order to establish consensus on the organization and content of articles related to comics and sequential art. See the main project page and please leave comments on the Talk page. Thanks! -leigh (φθόγγος) 23:26, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

discussion

I'd just like to point out that there are several pages on comics characters that are not having any attention at all paid to them! For example, there's the page on Quantum that is VERY INCOMPLETE! All pages on superhero/villain characters should discuss that character's super powers! But Quantum's powers arent' listed here! All it tells is that Quantum was part of the Unified Field Theory! And then the discussion pages aren't having any attention paid to them! If there's a project on expanding comic stub articles, I SURE DON'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF ONE! There are a whole bunch of articles which haven't even been touched for months! Somebody had better get busy! Scorpionman 02:24, 20 May 2005 (UTC)