Talk:Chile (capsicum)

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Contents

1 Chilli 2 Capsicum anuum 3 New or Old World 4 Photo of Haberenos 5 RE Spelling 6 Re: Spelling 7 Re: Spelling 8 Merge into Capsicum 9 RE: Wrongly Deleted Article 10 Again: why "chilli"?? 11 chile pepper and capsicum 12 Chile (capsicum)

Chilli

Who spells this word "chilli". I can't say I've ever seen it that way before in America, although I see a lot of websites spelled that way. Is this a British English spelling? Should this page just be at "chile"? Rmhermen 05:49 Aug 21, 2002 (PDT)

I've never noticed it with two Ls. Either "chili" or "chile". It is listed in the Oxford American Dictionary, though: chili, chile, chilli. (I guess in order of how common the spellings are?) --KQ

Google gives the following statistics (rounded off by me): "chili" 1.7m (world) 40k (UK) "chilli" 370k (world) 70k (UK) "chile pepper" 22k (world) 260 (UK) "chili pepper" 73k (world) 1300 (UK) "chilli pepper" 8k (world) 1200 (UK) The OED2 gives "chilli" as the main form, with "chili" and "chile" as archaic forms. All the stuff in my (British) kitchen spells it "chilli", including food imported from Thailand.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you guys are wrong. British English is clearly in the minority here. I'm just explaining why I spelled it as I did. I shall put a note in the article about the relative frequencies of the spellings. -- user:Heron

Capsicum anuum

How do we handle the fact that jalapenos and bell pepers are both Capsicum Annuum? No one I think would call bell peppers chiles. Rmhermen 06:45 Aug 21, 2002 (PDT)

In Latin American cooking, there's a dish called "chile relleno" (stuffed chile) which uses a chile pod that is almost the size of a bell pepper, and not appreciably hotter. It's a stretch... but...  ;) -- Tooki 21:39, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

New or Old World

Is the statement "the plant was unknown in Asia until Europeans introduced it there"? I have a source that says it has been grown in there for "thousands of years" wich seems to predate Columbus. I have also read about seeds of Capsicum frutecens from the 15th century being found in Lund. Also some roman texts may refer to chili peppers. // Liftarn

Your source is mistaken, the entire nightshade family is native to the new world only. Mkweise 23:26, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Photo of Haberenos

Re: the second photo - I don't think these are Haberenos. They are known as "hot peppers" and were sold at a caribbean market in London. From looking at the external link they are either Jamaican (http://www.jump.net/~pkrouse/outside/peppers/jamcu.jpg) or Scotch Bonnet (http://www.jump.net/~pkrouse/outside/peppers/ysbcu.jpg). Anyone could at identifying chillis? Secretlondon 22:47, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The peppers in your photo have the classic lantern shape of Habaneros, not the more bunched-up bonnet shape of Scotch bonnets. The Jamaican pepper shown in your link above looks very similar to a Habanero to me - I'd have to smell or taste a pepper to identify it beyond any doubt. Habanero peppers have a distinct citrus-like aroma that no other pepper shares. Mkweise 23:26, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Habaneros are originally from Cuba, not Mexico. Mkweise 23:56, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

RE Spelling

Try going to BBC site [1] (http://www.bbc.co.uk/)and typing in the various spellings into the search engine. If you were looking for a recipe with only one L or an E, you would go hungry.

Re: Spelling

"Chilli pepper" may be the standard British spelling now, but the word was originally "chile" (Webster's says that we got the word through Spanish), which then got corrupted to "chili" and "chilli". Secondly, the word "pepper" -- in the strictest sense -- never refers to chiles, but only to black pepper (piper nigrum) and its relatives.

Bell peppers have maintained their name, despite the fact that they're not even spicy.

In the culinary arts and botany, the capsicum pods are referred to as "chiles" to show the distinction from pepper. All the "definitive" sources of culinary knowledge (e.g. Barron's Food Lover's Companion, which is available on the web as www.epicurious.com's food dictionary; and cookbooks like the Joy of Cooking, or Mark Bittman's "How to Cook Everything") all agree that "chile" is the best spelling for the pod, and that "chili" is the usual spelling for the dish whose full Spanish name is "chile con carne".

Note also that the full OED's etymology of its entry "chilli, chilly" reports evidence of Chille, Chile, and Chiles all before the first instance of "Chilli". Clearly, the "-e" spelling predates the "-i" spelling. That said, the etymologies do seem to stem from Native Mexican "chilli", but I ask how that was determined, since Nahuatl obviously had to be romanized at some point. As I said before, we got it from Spanish "chile".

I propose (and unless someone objects within a reasonable amount of time, will also do) that the article be moved to either "Chile (food)" or "Chili", and that all references in the article of "chilli" or "chilli pepper" be standardized to "chile" or "chili". I will also add a blurb about how chiles are not peppers, a distinction held only by plants of the genus "Piper". When westerners (among others) first encountered chiles, they called them pepper because until then, black pepper had been the primary source of spiciness they'd known, so they applied it to everything spicy.

I realize that "chilli" and "chili" (with or without "pepper") may be common spellings, but:

1. The OED does not define English -- the standard usage in relevant fields is more important
2. There is a lot of value in promoting a spelling that results in the least ambiguity (in this case, the distinction between capsicum pods and Piper berries)
3. We should encourage the use of the terminology used in the relevant fields: in this case, both the culinary arts and botany have de-facto standardized on "chile", and both also agree that "pepper" does not belong in the name.
4. That said, I recognize that "chili" is by FAR the most common spelling, so if we are going to depart from the spelling closest to the word of origin, then it should be "chili", not "chilli", which is a very specific alternate spelling.

Everyone interested in the spelling debate should read http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Caps_fru.html#etym_chile

-- Tooki 21:28, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) (P.S. I'm a linguistics and culinary arts nut, so I do have a little background!)

P.S. I also found another article (capsicum) which almost entirely overlaps in content with the chile article. Should we nix "chile/chili/chilli" altogether (aside from the blurb on spelling) and integrate the content with Capsicum and just refer to them as capsicums?

The following paragraph was in the article, but belongs here in talk (Gdr 00:58, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC))

Google test results: chili pepper (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22chili+pepper%22&btnG=Google+Search), chile pepper (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22chile+pepper%22&btnG=Google+Search), chilli pepper (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22chilli+pepper%22&btnG=Google+Search)

All of those results still ignore the fact that the word "pepper" does not belong in the correct name of any capsicum pod. Yes, they are commonly referred to as "chili/le/lli peppers", but the fact remains that they are not pepper, they are chiles. Wiki should be about disseminating the best info out there, not perpetuating misinformation.

A Google test of "chiles" vs "chilies"/"chilis" vs "chillies"/"chillis" shows vastly more common usage of "chiles" than any other spelling ("chiles" has nearly three times as many hits as the second most popular spelling, "chillies").

-- tooki 08:42, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. I agree with you about "pepper" being inadvisable. So I removed it from everywhere except the introductory paragraph. However, you haven't convinced me about "chile" versus "chilli". "Chilli" has the advantage that it is clear how to pronounce it; it doesn't clash with the word "chile" (variant form of "child") or the country "Chile". And it's pretty popular too, if not quite as popular as "chile". Also dictionaries like the OED and Chambers prefer it. Can you say something more about the standarization you refer to above?

The page should perhaps eventually be moved to Chilli (currently a redirect) or something like Chile (capsicum) if we can agree on a spelling. Gdr 19:25, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)

I'd be happy to add info :)

1. In the U.S., the "chilli" spelling is plain and simply not used. "Chilli" is a Britishism, and it is not fair to use a spelling unused by most English speakers.
2. "chile" is the most etymologically accurate spelling, and (though this is not the primary concern) converges nicely with the Spanish word for them: chile. Since Spanish is the language spoken in Mexico (the epicenter of chiles, both botanically and culinarily), there is some value in this.
3. I don't consider the OED (or any general-purpose dictionary) to be the final word on spelling, especially when definitive works in the specialty fields (in this case, the culinary arts and botany) have standardized on another. In culinary arts, I look at Barron's Food Lover's Companion, which is available on the web as epicurious.com's food dictionary (http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/); and cookbooks like the Joy of Cooking (http://www.simonsays.com/content/index.cfm?sid=43), or Mark Bittman's "How to Cook Everything (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0028610105/002-9218575-9968000?v=glance)". I'm not a botanist, but I've heard multiple times that botanists refer to them as "chiles", not anything else. (FWIW, Webster's prefers "chili" and mentions "chilli" as "chiefly British".)
4. While my preferred spelling is clearly "chile", I would be satisfied-under-objection with "chili". "Chilli" is too narrow, not used by the vast majority of English speakers.
5. "Chile (capsicum)" or "Chile (food)" would be good names for the entry.
6. I don't think there's any confusion with Chile (the country), and certainly not with pronunciation. I've never heard "chile" mispronounced.

The upshot is that, between the usage in the relevant disciplines, the etymology and the frequency, "chile" is the more scholarly choice -- after all, Wiki is an encyclopedia, not a comic book or blog!

I must also mention again (since nobody reacted to my previous mention of this) that there is an article, capsicum, that almost entirely overlaps with this one. We should consider folding this article into "capsicum".

-- tooki 02:16, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re: Spelling

The concept that the word "pepper" is only properly used to describe black pepper is incorrect. One of the official definitions by Webster is -

"Any plant of the genus Capsicum, and its fruit; red pepper; as, the bell pepper."

More importantly, the most commonly-used name for these guys in the English-speaking world, which is actually what we need to be concerned about according to the Wikipedia Naming Conventions when naming an article, is...

"peppers"

In fact, when you look at many of the commonly-used names that include the word "pepper", you can see that it's use in describing Capsicum is not only acceptable, it actually appears to be taking the lead over Piper! For example -

• sweet pepper
• hot pepper
• chile pepper
• anaheim pepper
• red pepper
• green pepper
• bell pepper

all of which refer to capsicums.

The idea that "pepper" is not used in this specialty field is also incorrect. I took a look at the catalogs of 10 different botanical companies which carry capsicums, to see what they called them. Here is the break-down -

1. Peppers - 5
2. Pepper - 3
3. Hot Peppers - 1
4. Hot Chile Peppers - 1

Note that ALL 10 of them had Pepper(s) as part of the name they used to refer to capsicums, and NONE of them were referring to piper nigrum!

The idea that the word "peppers" is not proper for use by those specializing in capsicum culinary arts or botany is ridiculous. Such notable capsicum folks as Dave DeWitt, Jean Andrews and Amal Naj all have books about the culinary and/or botanical aspects of capsicums which not only refer to them as such, but even include the word "pepper" in the book titles!

However, on the botanical side, I can think of no better example than the name of the capsicum research institution associated with the New Mexico State University (NMSU), and run by the esteemed Dr. Paul Bosland, recognized as one of the world's leading experts on capsicums. The name of this research institution is -

"The Chile Pepper Institute"

If "Chile Pepper" is good enough for Dr. Bosland, it should be good enough for us!

Unless we are to believe that all of these world-renown experts are "perpetuating misinformation", use of the phrase "chile pepper" is both acceptable and appropriate in this article.

On the issue of re-naming the article itself, I think that either "Chile pepper" (or alternatively, "Hot pepper") would be preferable to the other two spellings. I think that we can all agree that the current spelling is the least commonly used outside of the UK; and "chili" is also commonly used to refer to other things.

Unless someone can come up with a good reason why we should use the less precise "chili", I think we need to move this to Chile Pepper. --Hotpeppers 11:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Merge into Capsicum

There was a great deal of duplication between the capsicum and chilli pepper articles (indeed, almost every portion of the subject was touched on in both articles). So I merged the two pages at capsicum. This has the useful side-effect of avoiding the question of which spelling the article should live at. Gdr 12:43, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

Yeah that's great, except wikipedia naming policy says the primary criterion for the name is the most common thing someone would think of when looking for the topic. Capsicum is certainly not it. So that move was ill timed (Chilli pepper is a FAC) and wikiquette suggests asking for consensus here before making a unilateral move like that is more appropriate. - Taxman 14:35, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

You said on WP:FAC that some information was lost. What was it? The merge was quite tricky, with many piece of information appearing twice or sometimes three times. I could easily have lost something in the process. Gdr 20:47, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

Provided that ample redirects are put in place for all the expected names, I think that capsicum is a good place for the article to live. That said, the merge needs to be done very carefully to preserve flow, uniformity, ensure no inadvertently lost info, prevent redundant or conflicting info, etc. -- tooki 19:45, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I believe I did all that, and there are plenty of redirects. Please check and correct problems. Gdr 20:33, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

RE: Wrongly Deleted Article

For the numerous reasons outlined in great detail in my posts of Sept. and Oct. of this year on the discussion page for Capsicum, I have restored this wrongly deleted article.

I will also go through the edits made subsequent to the merger and am re-applying them to both articles, in order to make sure that no changes are lost. --Hotpeppers 02:17, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Applied Latest Updates:

The following changes were made elsewhere to the contents of this article after it was deleted, and have been re-applied -

Update by Taxman on Aug 19 listed as "noted complimentary effect of a chemical on birds".

Applicable portions of update by Tooki on Aug. 26 listed as "minor cleanup".

The update by Bobierto on Sept. 5 listed as "habaneros and Scotch bonnets are the same thing!", which was based on the premise that the article was in error, was not re-applied, for the simple reason that the premise was incorrect, and applying this change would have made the article inaccurate. --Hotpeppers 05:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Again: why "chilli"??

Even the page itself concedes that, with or without the word pepper, the vastly more common spelling is "chile". Why is this article filed under the least common spelling? -- tooki 00:31, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm moving the article to "chile pepper" because no one seems to have answered Tooki's entirely reasonable question in over a month. Nohat 04:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

chile pepper and capsicum

If this article is going to talk about the fruits, and the capsicum about the plants, then this one needs to lose its sections about the species, excessive talk of capsaicin, and whatnot. --Joy [shallot] 15:03, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chile (capsicum)

King Dedede, kindly explain your reasoning for "Chile (capsicum)". --Joy [shallot] 21:11, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)